Group Activity

On 9/21/2011 12:11 PM, vaughn wrote:
"Wayne wrote in message
...
I have been off this group for over a year. Previously this was a very active
group; however, there has been very few messages since I returned. It may be
due to my service provider, or maybe with the passing of a few key members the
overall activity has significantly diminished.

It's not your service provider, and it's not just this group. For a variety of
reasons, the Usenet is in a serious general decline. There are a few
exceptions, like rec.aviation.soaring.



True enough, but this was, and could still be a viable forum.

Thank you for the responses.

I have also noticed a very significant decline in the activity on my Yahoo
hp-gliders news group. (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hp-gliders) There has
also been a massive decline in number of visits to the Schreder Sailplane
Designs website. (http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder)

Maybe this is all a sign of the times and we are becoming a society where
people no longer develop the skills and self confidence to build or repair
thing. This is definitely true in the world of Amateur Radio where
homebuilt system were common and now seldom exist.

Again, thank you for the replies.

Wayne
HP-14 "6F" W7ADK
http://www.soaridaho.com/


"Richard" wrote in message
...

On 9/21/2011 12:11 PM, vaughn wrote:
"Wayne wrote in message
...
I have been off this group for over a year. Previously this was a very
active
group; however, there has been very few messages since I returned. It may
be
due to my service provider, or maybe with the passing of a few key
members the
overall activity has significantly diminished.

It's not your service provider, and it's not just this group. For a
variety of
reasons, the Usenet is in a serious general decline. There are a few
exceptions, like rec.aviation.soaring.



True enough, but this was, and could still be a viable forum.

"Wayne Paul" wrote in message
m...

Thank you for the responses.

I have also noticed a very significant decline in the activity on my Yahoo
hp-gliders news group. (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hp-gliders) There has
also been a massive decline in number of visits to the Schreder Sailplane
Designs website. (http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder)

Maybe this is all a sign of the times and we are becoming a society where
people no longer develop the skills and self confidence to build or repair
thing. This is definitely true in the world of Amateur Radio where
homebuilt system were common and now seldom exist.

Again, thank you for the replies.

I would too like to see this group make a come-back. There are many ideas
to be discussed.

In order to begin, those who would come around would need to agree to shun
undesirables who would rather see the group destroyed, such a MX-ed up. I
don't know if that is possible.

You game to try? Got an initial thread subject?

-- Jim in NC

"Morgans" wrote in message ...

You game to try? Got an initial thread subject?

-- Jim in NC


I'll bite.
If you were interested in building a Zenith CH-701 (or similar), would you go for the leading edge wing slats(as designed), or dispense with them and use vortex generators instead?

--
Jeff R.
Sydney Australia

"Jeff R." wrote in

I'll bite.
If you were interested in building a Zenith CH-701 (or similar), would you
go for the leading edge wing slats(as designed), or dispense with them and
use vortex generators instead?

--
That's a pretty big change to make on something so very important. If you
ask me, get a plane plan or kit designed for your intended mission, then
change little things like how high to put the seat.

My greatest fear in making that decision would be to find out you do not
have good enough aileron control at low speed, too high of stall speeds, and
possibly change the center of lift enough to make it out of control in parts
of the flight envelope. You would be a test pilot.

Get a real aeronautical engineer familiar with small planes before you go
with that change, if you ask me.

-- Jim in NC

"Morgans" wrote in message ...
"Jeff R." wrote in

I'll bite.
If you were interested in building a Zenith CH-701 (or similar), would you
go for the leading edge wing slats(as designed), or dispense with them and
use vortex generators instead?

--
That's a pretty big change to make on something so very important. If you
ask me, get a plane plan or kit designed for your intended mission, then
change little things like how high to put the seat.

My greatest fear in making that decision would be to find out you do not
have good enough aileron control at low speed, too high of stall speeds, and
possibly change the center of lift enough to make it out of control in parts
of the flight envelope. You would be a test pilot.

Get a real aeronautical engineer familiar with small planes before you go
with that change, if you ask me.

-- Jim in NC

Thanks Jim.
Its a well-trodden path, with enthusiastic proponents on both sides.

Slats seem to work great within a very narrow window, but with weight, drag, complexity and cost penalties.
VGs seem (!) to do almost as well with little downside.
It difficult to find a definitive answer. Each side seems too committed to their solution to be impartial.

Sigghhh.
I guess I keep looking for builders who've done it.

--
Jeff R.

"Jeff R." wrote

Thanks Jim.
Its a well-trodden path, with enthusiastic proponents on both sides.

A- Well there you go. Since this site has been inactive, I had not gone
elsewhere to see this discussed

Slats seem to work great within a very narrow window, but with weight, drag,
complexity and cost penalties.
VGs seem (!) to do almost as well with little downside.
It difficult to find a definitive answer. Each side seems too committed to
their solution to be impartial.

Sigghhh.
I guess I keep looking for builders who've done it.

Interesting. What does Chris have to say on the subject? (as if I need to
askg.)

Let us know what you find out.

-- Jim in NC

"Jeff R." wrote:
If you were interested in building a Zenith CH-701 (or similar), would
you go for the leading edge wing slats(as designed), or dispense with
them and use vortex generators instead?

I believe that the original Savannah Aircraft kit was first released with
leading slats, then they changed it to vortex generators because the latter
provided all the benefits of the former with no loss of STOL performance.
Here is an interesting web page describing tests done on Savannah:

http://www.stolspeed.com/slats-v-s-vgs

But the above is on a web site that appears to sell VGs. Here is what Chris
Heintz thinks of VGs vs slats for his 701:

http://www.zenithair.com/stolch801/d...vg-design.html

"Jim Logajan" wrote in message ...
"Jeff R." wrote:
If you were interested in building a Zenith CH-701 (or similar), would
you go for the leading edge wing slats(as designed), or dispense with
them and use vortex generators instead?

I believe that the original Savannah Aircraft kit was first released with
leading slats, then they changed it to vortex generators because the latter
provided all the benefits of the former with no loss of STOL performance.
Here is an interesting web page describing tests done on Savannah:

http://www.stolspeed.com/slats-v-s-vgs

But the above is on a web site that appears to sell VGs. Here is what Chris
Heintz thinks of VGs vs slats for his 701:

http://www.zenithair.com/stolch801/d...vg-design.html

....and that exactly demonstrates my dilemma.

Neither is impartial.
Who is right?

I'm inclined to trust Chris Heintz, as the engineer/innovator, but at the same time he has (had - he's retired) a significant financial attachment to L.E. slats. Not just on the 701, but right up to th 850.

On balance, I'm inclined to favour VGs (Piper Cub didn't need slats), but I'm put off Savannah just simply because of their unethical poaching of CH's designs.

I plan to cut the first stringers in about a year from now.

Maybe I could build retractable slats?

(joke)

--
Jeff R.

"Jeff R." wrote:
but I'm put off Savannah just simply because of their unethical
poaching of CH's designs.

Just FYI: Eric Giles, the fellow who created Skykits Corporation (the U.S.
agent or distribution company for the ICP Savannah) appears to be
redirecting sales to another U.S. company he created called World Aircraft
that will sell a Max Tedesco design. If you go to the Skykits website:

http://www.skykits.com/

You can see where it redirects.

A rather lengthy tale that claims to explain the origin of both the 701 and
Savannah is posted here, and presumably why Giles shifted from ICP to
Tedesco:

http://www.stolspeed.com/origins-701-savannah