Russians did not kill Poles in Katyn

another evidence it is yet another
polish made poor fake.


Blame the victims, Michael. Nice.

nt (Krztalizer) wrote in message ...
another evidence it is yet another
polish made poor fake.


Blame the victims, Michael. Nice.

I am sure Polish goverment in London knew very well it
was germans job. Actualy it was really easy to understand.
But they voluntarily decided to be on the Gebels side.
You too BTW. So why should not man like me blame all of you.

Michael

Blame the victims, Michael. Nice.

I am sure Polish goverment in London knew very well it
was germans job.

Yeah, but since their country was already occupied by the fricking SOVIETS and
their Nazi allies, they decided to shift the blame off the Nazis and onto the
innocent and benevolent Soviets??? Riiiiiiiight.

Actualy it was really easy to understand.
But they voluntarily decided to be on the Gebels side.
You too BTW.

Well, I'm not stupid enough to blame you for actions of 1940 - but you are
making quite a name for yourself as a revisionistic fool.

So why should not man like me blame all of you.

No, you didn't suggest the 'west' faked those documents - you said it was the
Poles, the very victims of the crime. You wouldn't accept Soviet guilt in this
case in any circumstance, but its pretty clear that you are failing to convict
the Germans of this act.

nt (Krztalizer) wrote in message ...
Blame the victims, Michael. Nice.

I am sure Polish goverment in London knew very well it
was germans job.

Yeah, but since their country was already occupied by the fricking SOVIETS and
their Nazi allies, they decided to shift the blame off the Nazis and onto the
innocent and benevolent Soviets??? Riiiiiiiight.

Why their government escaped from the battle field? Why they did not
asked USSR for help in 39. According to Ribbentrop-Molotov
pact eastern part of Poland was our field of influence with
their capital in it. So germans would never cross the agreed
line. Even with totaly destryed army Poles could have their
state functioning in eastern half, providing of course their
asked russians for help and keep goverment in Warshaw.
Instead they escaped to Rumania and surrender. After Sept 17,
1939 there were no Polish goverment, no Polish army, no Polish
state in eastern poland. Of course Stalin had to fill vacuum.
Poles have to blaim themself for all those traubles in 1939.
Why they were stupid?


Actualy it was really easy to understand.
But they voluntarily decided to be on the Gebels side.
You too BTW.

Well, I'm not stupid enough to blame you for actions of 1940 - but you are
making quite a name for yourself as a revisionistic fool.

Fool? No gordon, I am not fool. You are just uncapable to sort
facts and analyse it on your own. You are dependent on all accounts.
You never have your own opinion, you do not know even what is it
to have your own opinion. poor naive guy subject of manipulation
by anyone.



So why should not man like me blame all of you.

No, you didn't suggest the 'west' faked those documents - you said it was the
Poles, the very victims of the crime.

Why? i did. germany is part of west. Or not? Even Poles
belive they are part of west, idiots. That was main
reason to their traubles in 39-45, but they did not learn
anything from all that. Russian restored their state
russians gave them german lands and gurantee their borders,
but they are still so stupid to hate russians for all
russian goodness. Idiots.

You wouldn't accept Soviet guilt in this
case in any circumstance,

why not? most of russians still believe it was done by us.

but its pretty clear that you are failing to convict
the Germans of this act.

It does not matter for me. Although I did not try actually I would
never put myself in very weak position to convince anyone in anything
and become depedent on it. I do not care about anyone opinions on that
matters particualrly yours. However i note it is funny enough that
germans prefer to keep silence. Quite understanable. But after all
this years it is quite understandable. As for me Gordon I have just
informed folks that no matter what is current official position
of russian government on Katyn matters russian people will no allow
to put legal responsibility of this crime to russian people. There
are enough undisputable data proving it was german job. Sooner or
later it will be heard by a fair court who will defined that
legally. Katyn is the problem between germans and poles NATO
members, not between poles and russians.

that's all I wanted to say.

"Michael Petukhov" wrote in message
om...
nt (Krztalizer) wrote in message
...
Blame the victims, Michael. Nice.

I am sure Polish goverment in London knew very well it
was germans job.

Yeah, but since their country was already occupied by the fricking
SOVIETS and
their Nazi allies, they decided to shift the blame off the Nazis and
onto the
innocent and benevolent Soviets??? Riiiiiiiight.

Why their government escaped from the battle field? Why they did not
asked USSR for help in 39. According to Ribbentrop-Molotov
pact eastern part of Poland was our field of influence with
their capital in it. So germans would never cross the agreed
line. Even with totaly destryed army Poles could have their
state functioning in eastern half, providing of course their
asked russians for help and keep goverment in Warshaw.
Instead they escaped to Rumania and surrender. After Sept 17,
1939 there were no Polish goverment, no Polish army, no Polish
state in eastern poland. Of course Stalin had to fill vacuum.
Poles have to blaim themself for all those traubles in 1939.
Why they were stupid?


Oh Puleeze

The knowledge that the carve up of Poland was pre-arranged has been
known since the capture of German records in 1945. Here's an example

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/nazsov/ns072.htm

Quote

From The Reich Foreign Minister to the German Ambassador in the Soviet
Union (Schulenburg)

No. 360 of September 15
For the Ambassador personally.

I request that you communicate the following to Herr Molotov at once:

1) The destruction of the Polish Army is rapidly approaching its conclusion,
as appears from the review of the military situation of September 14 which
has already been communicated to you. We count on the occupation of Warsaw
in the next few days.

2) We have already stated to the Soviet Government that we consider
ourselves bound by the definition of spheres of influence agreed upon in
Moscow, entirely apart from purely military operations, and the same applies
of course to the future as well.

3) From the communication made to you by Molotov on September 14, we assume
that the Soviet Government will take a hand militarily, and that it intends
to begin its operation now. We welcome this. The Soviet Government thus
relieves us of the necessity of annihilating the remainder of the Polish
Army by pursuing it as far as the Russian boundary. Also the question is
disposed of in case a Russian intervention did not take place, of whether in
the area lying to the east of the German zone of influence a political
vacuum might not occur. Since we on our part have no intention of
undertaking any political or administrative activities in these areas, apart
from what is made necessary by military operations, without such an
intervention on the part of the Soviet Government there might be the
possibility of the construction of new states there.

4) For the political support of the advance of the Soviet Army we propose
the publication of a joint communiqué of the following content:
"In view of the complete collapse of the previous form of government in
Poland, the Reich Government and the Government of the U.S.S.R. consider it
necessary to bring to an end the intolerable political and economic
conditions existing in these territories. They regard it as their joint duty
to restore peace and order in these areas which are naturally of interest to
them and to bring about a new order by the creation of natural frontiers and
viable economic organizations."

5) We assume in proposing such a communiqué that the Soviet Government has
already given up the idea, expressed by Molotov in an earlier conversation
with you, of taking the threat to the Ukrainian and White Russian
populations by Germany as a ground for Soviet action. The assignment of a
motive of that sort would be out of the question in practice. It would be
directly contrary to the true German intentions, which are confined
exclusively to the realization of well-known German spheres of interest. It
would also be in contradiction to the arrangements made in Moscow and,
finally, would-in opposition to the desire for friendly relations expressed
on both sides expose the two States before the whole world as enemies.

6) Since the military operations must be concluded as soon as possible
because of the advanced season of the year, we would be gratified if the
Soviet Government would set a day and hour on which their army would begin
their advance, so that we on our part might govern ourselves accordingly.
For the purpose of the necessary coordination of military operations on
either side, it is also necessary that a representative of each Government,
as well as German and Russian officers on the spot in the area of
operations, should have a meeting in order to take the necessary steps, for
which meeting we propose to assemble at Bialystok by air.

I request an immediate reply by telegraph. The change in text agreed upon by
Gaus with Hilger has already been taken care of.

RIBBENTROP

/Quote

Try taking a look at the secret protocol of the Soviet German non aggression
pact

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/nazsov/addsepro.htm

Keith

"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message ...
"Michael Petukhov" wrote in message
om...
nt (Krztalizer) wrote in message
...
Blame the victims, Michael. Nice.

I am sure Polish goverment in London knew very well it
was germans job.

Yeah, but since their country was already occupied by the fricking
SOVIETS and
their Nazi allies, they decided to shift the blame off the Nazis and
onto the
innocent and benevolent Soviets??? Riiiiiiiight.

Why their government escaped from the battle field? Why they did not
asked USSR for help in 39. According to Ribbentrop-Molotov
pact eastern part of Poland was our field of influence with
their capital in it. So germans would never cross the agreed
line. Even with totaly destryed army Poles could have their
state functioning in eastern half, providing of course their
asked russians for help and keep goverment in Warshaw.
Instead they escaped to Rumania and surrender. After Sept 17,
1939 there were no Polish goverment, no Polish army, no Polish
state in eastern poland. Of course Stalin had to fill vacuum.
Poles have to blaim themself for all those traubles in 1939.
Why they were stupid?



You must be joking Keith or you just do nit actualy read what you post?

1) Ribentrop could write whatever he wanted to his
ambassador in Moscow. USSR goverment certainly has no
resposibilites for what was suggested by Germany.

2) The letter actually support my view that until Polish
goverment cowardly escaped to Rumania and left its army
and people in grave danger, USSR goverment had no intentions
to attack Poland and gave no promises of that to Germany
"...in case a Russian intervention did not take place...
a political vacuum might not occur.."

The meaning of the letter is that Ribbentrop asking
Moscow for a favor saying it would be in common interests.
Clearly Stalin was not that sure about that even on
Sept 15. The situation changed on Sept 17 when Polish
so to speak "goverment" voluntarily seased to exist and
escaped to Rumania. What he could do but to accupy the territories
to prevent power vacuum. What you would do in his place?

Based on that we could imgine what would be USSR actions
if France, Britain, Poland and Russia entered true antiNAZI
pact before 23.08.39. Germany would not even try to attack
poland. But first 3 countries had very different goals in
1939. And here in russian we know very well what the goals were
to collide Germany and USSR with possible participation
of Poland, Finland and Rumania on german side in 1939.
Right, Keith? You know that too, very well know.


Michael




Oh Puleeze

The knowledge that the carve up of Poland was pre-arranged has been
known since the capture of German records in 1945. Here's an example

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/nazsov/ns072.htm

Quote

From The Reich Foreign Minister to the German Ambassador in the Soviet
Union (Schulenburg)

No. 360 of September 15
For the Ambassador personally.

I request that you communicate the following to Herr Molotov at once:

1) The destruction of the Polish Army is rapidly approaching its conclusion,
as appears from the review of the military situation of September 14 which
has already been communicated to you. We count on the occupation of Warsaw
in the next few days.

2) We have already stated to the Soviet Government that we consider
ourselves bound by the definition of spheres of influence agreed upon in
Moscow, entirely apart from purely military operations, and the same applies
of course to the future as well.

3) From the communication made to you by Molotov on September 14, we assume
that the Soviet Government will take a hand militarily, and that it intends
to begin its operation now. We welcome this. The Soviet Government thus
relieves us of the necessity of annihilating the remainder of the Polish
Army by pursuing it as far as the Russian boundary. Also the question is
disposed of in case a Russian intervention did not take place, of whether in
the area lying to the east of the German zone of influence a political
vacuum might not occur. Since we on our part have no intention of
undertaking any political or administrative activities in these areas, apart
from what is made necessary by military operations, without such an
intervention on the part of the Soviet Government there might be the
possibility of the construction of new states there.

4) For the political support of the advance of the Soviet Army we propose
the publication of a joint communiqué of the following content:
"In view of the complete collapse of the previous form of government in
Poland, the Reich Government and the Government of the U.S.S.R. consider it
necessary to bring to an end the intolerable political and economic
conditions existing in these territories. They regard it as their joint duty
to restore peace and order in these areas which are naturally of interest to
them and to bring about a new order by the creation of natural frontiers and
viable economic organizations."

5) We assume in proposing such a communiqué that the Soviet Government has
already given up the idea, expressed by Molotov in an earlier conversation
with you, of taking the threat to the Ukrainian and White Russian
populations by Germany as a ground for Soviet action. The assignment of a
motive of that sort would be out of the question in practice. It would be
directly contrary to the true German intentions, which are confined
exclusively to the realization of well-known German spheres of interest. It
would also be in contradiction to the arrangements made in Moscow and,
finally, would-in opposition to the desire for friendly relations expressed
on both sides expose the two States before the whole world as enemies.

6) Since the military operations must be concluded as soon as possible
because of the advanced season of the year, we would be gratified if the
Soviet Government would set a day and hour on which their army would begin
their advance, so that we on our part might govern ourselves accordingly.
For the purpose of the necessary coordination of military operations on
either side, it is also necessary that a representative of each Government,
as well as German and Russian officers on the spot in the area of
operations, should have a meeting in order to take the necessary steps, for
which meeting we propose to assemble at Bialystok by air.

I request an immediate reply by telegraph. The change in text agreed upon by
Gaus with Hilger has already been taken care of.

RIBBENTROP

/Quote

Try taking a look at the secret protocol of the Soviet German non aggression
pact

http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/nazsov/addsepro.htm

Keith

"Michael Petukhov" wrote in message
om...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...


You must be joking Keith or you just do nit actualy read what you post?

1) Ribentrop could write whatever he wanted to his
ambassador in Moscow. USSR goverment certainly has no
resposibilites for what was suggested by Germany.


It does however for agreeing to the secret protocol to
the non aggression pact which made it possible

2) The letter actually support my view that until Polish
goverment cowardly escaped to Rumania and left its army
and people in grave danger, USSR goverment had no intentions
to attack Poland and gave no promises of that to Germany
"...in case a Russian intervention did not take place...
a political vacuum might not occur.."

The meaning of the letter is that Ribbentrop asking
Moscow for a favor saying it would be in common interests.
Clearly Stalin was not that sure about that even on
Sept 15. The situation changed on Sept 17 when Polish
so to speak "goverment" voluntarily seased to exist and
escaped to Rumania. What he could do but to accupy the territories
to prevent power vacuum. What you would do in his place?



The perhaps you can explain the message of the 3rd of September

Quote
Telegram

No. 253 of September 3
BERLIN, September 3, 1939-6:50 p. m.
Received MOSCOW September 4, 1939-12:30 a. m.

Very Urgent! Exclusively for Ambassador.
Strictly secret! For Chief of Mission or his representative personally.
Top secret. To be decoded by himself. Strictest secrecy!

We definitely expect to have beaten the Polish Army decisively in a few
weeks. We would then keep the area that was established as German sphere of
interest at Moscow under military occupation. We would naturally, however,
for military reasons, also have to proceed further against such Polish
military forces as are at that time located in the Polish area belonging to
the Russian sphere of interest.

Please discuss this at once with Molotov and see if the Soviet Union does
not consider it desirable for Russian forces to move at the proper time
against Polish forces in the Russian sphere of interest and, for their part,
to occupy this territory. In our estimation this would be not only a relief
for us, but also, in the sense of the Moscow agreements, in the Soviet
interest as well.

In this connection please determine whether we may discuss this matter with
the officers who have just arrived here and what the Soviet Government
intends their position to be.
RIBBENTROP
/Quote

Keith

(Michael Petukhov) wrote in message . com...
that's all I wanted to say.


We take your promise seriously and expect it to be upheld without question.