CIA Vietnam war controlled USAF aircraft missions

(RobbelothE) wrote:

Subject: CIA Vietnam war controlled USAF aircraft missions
From: George Ruch
Date: 2/29/2004 12:05 AM Central Standard Time
Message-id:

Aerophotos wrote:

I have on good source from a knowledgeable aviation enthusiast, info
that in the late stages of the Vietnam war for some operations the CIA
controlled a limited amount of USAF assets, eg F-4 Phantoms and F-111s
Adavarks for attacks in Laos and Cambodia.

/\/\ Snip /\/\

What was so sensitive in Laos and Cambodia that would require them there?

Political fallout. Laos and Cambodia were officially neutral at the time,
but tolerated the flow of men and materials through their countries via the
Ho Chi Mihn Trail.

Let's use Occam's Razor here.

[snip]

I flew aboard an airborne command post over there (mid 68 to end of 69) and
have more time over Laos than either Thailand or Vietnam.

While CIA had a presence, Air America, nothing like the original poster claims
ever took place.

I expected as much.

There were some black-painted aircraft though. O-2 Forward Air Controllers
(FAC) who worked at night directing airstrikes, but not many of them.

[snip]

And my memory may have been playing tricks on me. Hell, it's been 30+
years... I don't know if I'm mixing up memories with the later LO gray SAC
FB-111s, but some of the A/C at Takhli may have gone to a gray/black night
low observable paint scheme.

Thanks for the info, Ed.

/------------------------------------------------------------\
| George Ruch |
| "Is there life in Clovis after Clovis Man?" |
\------------------------------------------------------------/

I flew aboard an airborne command post over there (mid 68 to end of 69) and
have more time over Laos than either Thailand or Vietnam.

While CIA had a presence, Air America, nothing like the original poster
claims
ever took place.

I expected as much.


The poster said later stages of the war. His information source was there in
1972. Different war under Nixon, maybe!

"Smartace11" wrote in message
...
I flew aboard an airborne command post over there (mid 68 to end of 69)
and
have more time over Laos than either Thailand or Vietnam.

While CIA had a presence, Air America, nothing like the original poster
claims
ever took place.

I expected as much.


The poster said later stages of the war. His information source was there
in
1972. Different war under Nixon, maybe!

The original poster (Aerophotos, AKA Jolly Green Giant) has demonstrated
little credibility; this latest flight of fantasy he has engaged in is just
another example of that.

Brooks

In 1969 when Nixon announced that "no American has died in Laos,
200 airmen (many of whom were Spad pilots from my Dad's unit --
the 602nd Fighter "Commando" Squadron) had already died there.

Kevy,

I wont rave on about your total lack of understanding in general about
what i do with information ive collected over the last 20yrs in
researching vietnam war operations which is close to my family's heart
in more ways then one, but ill let you be the judge when you talk 1-1 to
a highly talented, smart and interesting vietnam war era pilot and see
who comes off best..

Let me ask YOU a question...

Did you ever serve in Laos or Cambodia? ....


If not i suggest you be quiet. Because your out of order.

My source who i spoke to long time ago... knows what he is talking
about.. if you knew his qualifcations you be impressed.. i know i was.

Maybe my memory has gone fuzzy since i discussed the issues with the
source... and i mixed the F-111 with another aircraft that was black
painted.. maybe if so sorry.. not everyone is perfect at remebering
things in time .. even my source had some recollection issues.. 30yrs is
a long time ....but im not one to doubt this person who told me....and
furthermore i know stuff via the source that this group doesnt even know
yet about the usaf/vietnam war.. so maybe youd be smarter to keep your
lid shut...

Also a hint go and read up on many books as you can on the CIA
operations in SEA in general and you might learn more about the war...
dark and mysterious it was...



Kevin Brooks wrote:

"Smartace11" wrote in message
...
I flew aboard an airborne command post over there (mid 68 to end of 69)
and
have more time over Laos than either Thailand or Vietnam.

While CIA had a presence, Air America, nothing like the original poster
claims
ever took place.

I expected as much.


The poster said later stages of the war. His information source was there
in
1972. Different war under Nixon, maybe!

The original poster (Aerophotos, AKA Jolly Green Giant) has demonstrated
little credibility; this latest flight of fantasy he has engaged in is just
another example of that.

"Aerophotos" wrote in message
...
Kevy,

I wont rave on about your total lack of understanding in general about
what i do with information ive collected over the last 20yrs in
researching vietnam war operations which is close to my family's heart
in more ways then one, but ill let you be the judge when you talk 1-1 to
a highly talented, smart and interesting vietnam war era pilot and see
who comes off best..

Still making stuff up, eh JGG? What, the folks in the aus NG finally
succeeded in running you off?


Let me ask YOU a question...

Did you ever serve in Laos or Cambodia? ....

No, but someone "close to my family's heart" did indeed serve in the RVN and
pulled a few missions into Laos during his tour. He talked about a lot of
things he saw and did, but never any fantastic CIA fast-mover force.
Strangley enough, no other reputable source has indicated the existance of
such a force, either. Or would you be thinkin' that a few T-28's, UH-34's,
and UH-1's also qualify under that *fascinating* (hysterically so)
description you provided us of this mythical force?



If not i suggest you be quiet. Because your out of order.

You can suggest a lot of crap (and you often have..crap, that is). Do you
think that anybody really gives a rat's ass what you suggest, JGG?


My source who i spoke to long time ago... knows what he is talking
about.. if you knew his qualifcations you be impressed.. i know i was.

Now that is not exactly a ringing personal endorsement, considering the
source (you). Your track record thus far in this group ain't exactly that
hot, now is it? But at least here, unlike that Aussie group that so often
spanks you en mass, you don't have folks volunteering to search you out in
person (the trip's a bit too far for most, I guess).


Maybe my memory has gone fuzzy since i discussed the issues with the
source... and i mixed the F-111 with another aircraft that was black
painted.. maybe if so sorry.. not everyone is perfect at remebering
things in time .. even my source had some recollection issues.. 30yrs is
a long time ....but im not one to doubt this person who told me....

So now it may not have been F-111's, and this wonderful source may have been
a bit fuzzy...but you don't doubt his story. That figures.

and
furthermore i know stuff via the source that this group doesnt even know
yet about the usaf/vietnam war.. so maybe youd be smarter to keep your
lid shut...

Oh, boy. The old, "I know seeecret stuff" ploy, coming from a kid who
supposedly just enetered the RAAF? Spare us.


Also a hint go and read up on many books as you can on the CIA
operations in SEA in general and you might learn more about the war...
dark and mysterious it was...

When you have a guy who can mistake a T-28 (not a black painted one, either)
for a F-111, then you got a credibility problem. Something you should be
plenty familiar with.

Brooks




Kevin Brooks wrote:

"Smartace11" wrote in message
...
I flew aboard an airborne command post over there (mid 68 to end of
69)
and
have more time over Laos than either Thailand or Vietnam.

While CIA had a presence, Air America, nothing like the original
poster
claims
ever took place.

I expected as much.


The poster said later stages of the war. His information source was
there
in
1972. Different war under Nixon, maybe!

The original poster (Aerophotos, AKA Jolly Green Giant) has demonstrated
little credibility; this latest flight of fantasy he has engaged in is
just
another example of that.

So what stuff am i making up?, regarding fast movers under non us
military control?..... simple quote the source again

he flew black painted fast movers under non us military control and did
stuff that was different to other crews..

are you jealous?

So you claim, a talented person who is a amazing in what he acheived and
who served in vietnam is a liar? thats a low blow to him.

I ask can you recall anything you saw in a war that was covert at that
time? I dont think you will.. cause you werent there...

I wont comment any further on non us military forces as in fast movers
as i dont know beyond what ive been told by my source.

It seems you dont know it either cause your debating something new...so
everytime something new is released as info you claim someones a liar?

please keep going i like your trolling.

please i beg you, you are just making your self even more stupid now.



just cause i dont name sources of info for you is like some kind of
endorsement is it? what if they were proven to be right doesnt that make
you look like a idiotic critic then.

Just cause some people personelly hate the US political doctrine that
sent the US to war, doesnt mean the same people hate those who served..
please note that difference before you rant off ...



Kevin Brooks wrote:

"Aerophotos" wrote in message
...
Kevy,

I wont rave on about your total lack of understanding in general about
what i do with information ive collected over the last 20yrs in
researching vietnam war operations which is close to my family's heart
in more ways then one, but ill let you be the judge when you talk 1-1 to
a highly talented, smart and interesting vietnam war era pilot and see
who comes off best..

Still making stuff up, eh JGG? What, the folks in the aus NG finally
succeeded in running you off?


Let me ask YOU a question...

Did you ever serve in Laos or Cambodia? ....

No, but someone "close to my family's heart" did indeed serve in the RVN and
pulled a few missions into Laos during his tour. He talked about a lot of
things he saw and did, but never any fantastic CIA fast-mover force.
Strangley enough, no other reputable source has indicated the existance of
such a force, either. Or would you be thinkin' that a few T-28's, UH-34's,
and UH-1's also qualify under that *fascinating* (hysterically so)
description you provided us of this mythical force?



If not i suggest you be quiet. Because your out of order.

You can suggest a lot of crap (and you often have..crap, that is). Do you
think that anybody really gives a rat's ass what you suggest, JGG?


My source who i spoke to long time ago... knows what he is talking
about.. if you knew his qualifcations you be impressed.. i know i was.

Now that is not exactly a ringing personal endorsement, considering the
source (you). Your track record thus far in this group ain't exactly that
hot, now is it? But at least here, unlike that Aussie group that so often
spanks you en mass, you don't have folks volunteering to search you out in
person (the trip's a bit too far for most, I guess).


Maybe my memory has gone fuzzy since i discussed the issues with the
source... and i mixed the F-111 with another aircraft that was black
painted.. maybe if so sorry.. not everyone is perfect at remebering
things in time .. even my source had some recollection issues.. 30yrs is
a long time ....but im not one to doubt this person who told me....

So now it may not have been F-111's, and this wonderful source may have been
a bit fuzzy...but you don't doubt his story. That figures.

and
furthermore i know stuff via the source that this group doesnt even know
yet about the usaf/vietnam war.. so maybe youd be smarter to keep your
lid shut...

Oh, boy. The old, "I know seeecret stuff" ploy, coming from a kid who
supposedly just enetered the RAAF? Spare us.


Also a hint go and read up on many books as you can on the CIA
operations in SEA in general and you might learn more about the war...
dark and mysterious it was...

When you have a guy who can mistake a T-28 (not a black painted one, either)
for a F-111, then you got a credibility problem. Something you should be
plenty familiar with.

Brooks




Kevin Brooks wrote:

"Smartace11" wrote in message
...
I flew aboard an airborne command post over there (mid 68 to end of
69)
and
have more time over Laos than either Thailand or Vietnam.

While CIA had a presence, Air America, nothing like the original
poster
claims
ever took place.

I expected as much.


The poster said later stages of the war. His information source was
there
in
1972. Different war under Nixon, maybe!

The original poster (Aerophotos, AKA Jolly Green Giant) has demonstrated
little credibility; this latest flight of fantasy he has engaged in is
just
another example of that.


--

Furthermore, in dealing with life there are many things i can bet you
know that i dont and vice versa. Thats fine, i dont have a worry with
that.

But when other people know things that you dont know and tell you...your
like where is the evidence?

Sadly somethings in life are only verbally dictated, i learnt this early
on in life, i wonder did you... and there is no direct photos or written
evidence to suport it.


One only has to look at the crazy US govt to see lies covering up more
lies apon more lies on any issue you wish to choose. Military is a
goldmine.. health care is another.. etc etc.

I wont bother going into detail as some of the things dont even remotely
regard you or anyone else here. Anyway this is military issues

On Tue, 02 Mar 2004 17:44:20 +1100, Aerophotos
wrote:

So what stuff am i making up?, regarding fast movers under non us
military control?..... simple quote the source again

Well, I've been reading the thread, so now must ring in. "Fast movers
under 'non-us' military control"? That's a bit of an oxymoron for
several reasons.

First--'under control' usually means simply under the control of a
forward air controller, not manned and flown by some outside force.
Yes, there were a lot of fast mover sorties controlled by non-US FACs,
mostly S. Vietnamese, but also Laotian FACs. More commonly there were
host nation observers in US FAC aircraft.

Second--'non-military' can certainly mean Air America, which was
arguably a CIA operation.

Third--the operation of "fast movers" of the period was a highly
technical business requiring a lot of training. If one accepts your
premise of CIA operation of F-4 or F-111 aircraft, then it would be
done by USAF trained crews, posted to CIA for a period of time out of
uniform. Much like most of the Air America operatives.

he flew black painted fast movers under non us military control and did
stuff that was different to other crews..

Sorry, no black painted fast movers that I ever encountered. That
includes 1966 and again 1972-1973.

are you jealous?

So you claim, a talented person who is a amazing in what he acheived and
who served in vietnam is a liar? thats a low blow to him.

You don't yet offer details about the resume of this source. Is he US?
Is he US military? Did he fly US fast-movers? When? Where? What unit?

Give me a name and I'll validate. Otherwise the odds are just as good
that you're dealing with another wannabe.

I ask can you recall anything you saw in a war that was covert at that
time? I dont think you will.. cause you werent there...

I was there. Yes, there were covert ops. I'm close friends with
several Ravens. Still doesn't relate to anything you've offered.

I wont comment any further on non us military forces as in fast movers
as i dont know beyond what ive been told by my source.

Let's detail a bit on your source.

just cause i dont name sources of info for you is like some kind of
endorsement is it? what if they were proven to be right doesnt that make
you look like a idiotic critic then.

You don't have to give me a name (although that would help). Simply
give me some biography to validate.

Just cause some people personelly hate the US political doctrine that
sent the US to war, doesnt mean the same people hate those who served..
please note that difference before you rant off ...

Frankly Scarlett, I don't give a damn what you hate. But, when you
spout the incredible then it merits questioning.

Let me ask YOU a question...

Did you ever serve in Laos or Cambodia? ....

Well, to be honest, yes. I flew a lot of missions into Barrel Roll and
Steel Tiger in the F-105. Participated in a few rescues in that area
as well. Also was back over the Barrel in the F-4 and by January of
'73 we were operating daily over Cambodia. Been to Angkor Wat and Siam
Reap a lot.

If not i suggest you be quiet. Because your out of order.

The perfect riposte to disagreement. Simply be quiet.

My source who i spoke to long time ago... knows what he is talking
about.. if you knew his qualifcations you be impressed.. i know i was.

I eagerly await being impressed.

Maybe my memory has gone fuzzy since i discussed the issues with the
source... and i mixed the F-111 with another aircraft that was black
painted.. maybe if so sorry.. not everyone is perfect at remebering
things in time .. even my source had some recollection issues.. 30yrs is
a long time ....but im not one to doubt this person who told me....

I do pretty good at remembering. It's easier if you were there. Read
"When Thunder Rolled" for some details. Book on the F-4 in Linebacker
is coming out in the fall.

Never saw a black F-4 or F-111 in theater. F-111's weren't there most
of the time except for a short deployment in '67 and then returned in
the fall of '72.

Impossible to fly a combat weapons delivery sortie in either airplane
without a second crewmember. (Note that the F-4 can be flown quite
nicely solo as the Thunderbirds did, but not as a weapon system.)


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8