If yiu didn't fight in WW II.....

From: "Keith Willshaw"



"Mike Marron" wrote in message
.. .
"Keith Willshaw" wrote:
"Mike Marron" wrote:

Lack of enforcement and apprehension is one thing, lack of airstrikes
against Taliban and Al-Quida training camps is an entirely different
thing.

Those decisions are made by the Government not the USAF,

The government relys in part on Air Force intelligence resources to
make those decisions. You can continue to blame 9/11 on everyone
BUT the Air Force if you wish, but that's like blaming everyone BUT
the Army Air Corp for Dec 7, 1941.


The Army commander at Pearl Harbor was rightly blamed for
not acting on the warning passed to him by higher command
that war was imminent. If you have evidence of a similar failure
by the USAF prior to Sept 11 feel free to post it. I have seen none
so far..

blame the President and his advisers if you feel there were grounds for
such airstrikes but I dont recall any clamour from you on the
subject before Sept 11 2001

The gathering and processing of intelligence never was a part of my
job. My job was to simply fly checks, federal bank notes, nuclear
medicine stuff etc. in Cessna 210's.


So you are merely exercising 20/20 hindsight, OK but who do you think
should have ordered airstrikes if not the US Government ?

Keith

Keith, we tried this a couple of months ago. Marron has no idea how the Air
Force functions or what its mission is. If you press him on what we should have
done he has no answers. He just doesn't understand we had no one to
pre-emptively strike nor does he understand the Air Force has no authority to
spy on or bomb anyone they choose. Furthermore he has no comprehension his
claims and attacks on the military in general, USAF in particular, VA, VFW etc
are all baseless. All you will get is personal attacks or comments about RAM is
not a VFW drinking party. He has also not noticed that no one has attacked his
education/training/flying experience or ratings.

A simple google search will prove all this.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

"B2431" wrote in message
...
From: "Keith Willshaw"


Keith, we tried this a couple of months ago. Marron has no idea how the
Air
Force functions or what its mission is. If you press him on what we should
have
done he has no answers. He just doesn't understand we had no one to
pre-emptively strike nor does he understand the Air Force has no authority
to
spy on or bomb anyone they choose. Furthermore he has no comprehension his
claims and attacks on the military in general, USAF in particular, VA, VFW
etc
are all baseless. All you will get is personal attacks or comments about
RAM is
not a VFW drinking party. He has also not noticed that no one has attacked
his
education/training/flying experience or ratings.


True enough.

Personally I'd be extremely concerned if some branch of the armed
services started taking military action without orders from the
Government.

Keith

"Keith Willshaw" wrote:

Personally I'd be extremely concerned if some branch of the armed
services started taking military action without orders from the
Government.

Straw man argument. Nobody said some branch of the armed services
should commence military action w/o orders from the government. Nice
try, though. )

"Mike Marron" wrote in message
...
"Keith Willshaw" wrote:

Personally I'd be extremely concerned if some branch of the armed
services started taking military action without orders from the
Government.

Straw man argument. Nobody said some branch of the armed services
should commence military action w/o orders from the government. Nice
try, though. )


Yet you appear to blame them for not doing so.

Keith

"Mike Marron" wrote:
"Keith Willshaw" wrote:

Personally I'd be extremely concerned if some branch of the armed
services started taking military action without orders from the
Government.

Straw man argument. Nobody said some branch of the armed services
should commence military action w/o orders from the government. Nice
try, though. )

Yet you appear to blame them for not doing so.

Bullroar. I'm going to give you and sergeant dan and anyone else
who thinks like y'all do the exact same advice I often give my ab
initio students when they try reading the FAR's. When you read these
postings Keith, simply ignore the white parts and just concentrate on
the black parts (thems called "words.") Don't read into things that
"appear" to be there cos' they really aren't there. Again, just focus
on the black parts (e.g: the "words") exactly as they're written and
forget about the white spaces in between and you won't confuse
yourself. OK?

"Mike Marron" wrote in message
...
"Mike Marron" wrote:

Yet you appear to blame them for not doing so.

Bullroar. I'm going to give you and sergeant dan and anyone else
who thinks like y'all do the exact same advice I often give my ab
initio students when they try reading the FAR's. When you read these
postings Keith, simply ignore the white parts and just concentrate on
the black parts (thems called "words.") Don't read into things that
"appear" to be there cos' they really aren't there. Again, just focus
on the black parts (e.g: the "words") exactly as they're written and
forget about the white spaces in between and you won't confuse
yourself. OK?

Throughtout this, and the previous thread, you fail to call the 'government'
to task for not ordering your 'preemptive airstrikes'. You do, however, call
the Air Force to task for not conducting those strikes.

When asked "What could the Air Force have done differently?", you introduce
the idea of preemptive strikes. The USAF is not in the business of
conducting unilateral preemptive strikes. Thay are in the business of
conducting whatever the administration asks for.

You also repeatedly use the term "on 9/11".

As in:
"Let's just hope and pray the USAF never ever "functions" again like it
did back on Sept 11, 2001."

"The USAF, in addition to the USN, Army and Marine
Corps along with the various civilian intelligence and national
security agencies completely and totally failed to defend the
good ol' U.S. of A. on 11 Sept, 2001."

"my contention is simply that the USAF, along with the
various civilian U.S. intelligence agencies, dropped the ball BIG time
on 9/11."

There would seem to be two different environments for action. 'Pre-9/11'
(intel, and your presumed 'preemptive strikes'), and 'on 9/11' (as events
were happening). The two are not the same.

The above statements (by you) seem to point to a failing during the latter.

True?

Pete
Sscreech, ignore, or respond in a rational manner. Your choice.

"Mike Marron" wrote in message
...
"Mike Marron" wrote:
"Keith Willshaw" wrote:

Personally I'd be extremely concerned if some branch of the armed
services started taking military action without orders from the
Government.

Straw man argument. Nobody said some branch of the armed services
should commence military action w/o orders from the government. Nice
try, though. )

Yet you appear to blame them for not doing so.

Bullroar. I'm going to give you and sergeant dan and anyone else
who thinks like y'all do the exact same advice I often give my ab
initio students when they try reading the FAR's. When you read these
postings Keith, simply ignore the white parts and just concentrate on
the black parts (thems called "words.") Don't read into things that
"appear" to be there cos' they really aren't there. Again, just focus
on the black parts (e.g: the "words") exactly as they're written and
forget about the white spaces in between and you won't confuse
yourself. OK?


So you are keen on words , lets review some of YOURS.
When asked WHY the USAF was culpable you replied

"Lack of enforcement and apprehension is one thing, lack of airstrikes
against Taliban and Al-Quida training camps is an entirely different
thing."

These are the black parts you typed stating that the USAF
should have taken military action. If they had orders
from the Government to do so and failed they would be derelict.
In the absence of such orders they are not.

Keith

Mike Marron wrote:

"Mike Marron" wrote:

"Keith Willshaw" wrote:

Personally I'd be extremely concerned if some branch of the armed
services started taking military action without orders from the
Government.

Straw man argument. Nobody said some branch of the armed services
should commence military action w/o orders from the government. Nice
try, though. )

Yet you appear to blame them for not doing so.

Bullroar. I'm going to give you and sergeant dan and anyone else
who thinks like y'all do the exact same advice I often give my ab
initio students when they try reading the FAR's. When you read these
postings Keith, simply ignore the white parts and just concentrate on
the black parts (thems called "words.") Don't read into things that
"appear" to be there cos' they really aren't there. Again, just focus
on the black parts (e.g: the "words") exactly as they're written and
forget about the white spaces in between and you won't confuse
yourself. OK?

Well I confess to being in the same boat of confusion over
what you've written.

Perhaps if I don't read the black parts of the sentence along
with the white, it will all begin to make sense.


SMH

(B2431) wrote:

Marron has no idea how the Air Force functions or what its mission is.

Ooops, I thought you wanted to play nice? Guess not huh sarge?
You didn't even know that Air Force Intelligence, Surveillance, and
Reconnaissance (ISR) specialists EXISTED, much less that they were
heavily involved in counterterrorist ops. With regards to how the Air
Force functions or what its mission is, obviously to YOU its function
was to simply provide you with three hots and and a cot until you put
in your time so that you could kick back in the Florida sunshine for
the remainder of your pathetic existance.

From: Mike Marron


(B2431) wrote:

Marron has no idea how the Air Force functions or what its mission is.

Ooops, I thought you wanted to play nice? Guess not huh sarge?
You didn't even know that Air Force Intelligence, Surveillance, and
Reconnaissance (ISR) specialists EXISTED, much less that they were
heavily involved in counterterrorist ops. With regards to how the Air
Force functions or what its mission is, obviously to YOU its function
was to simply provide you with three hots and and a cot until you put
in your time so that you could kick back in the Florida sunshine for
the remainder of your pathetic existance.
Once again you resort to personal attacks.

As for intel and recon neither the USAF nor any other branch is permitted to do
this contrary to U.S. policy. The military does NOT make this policy. Any
commander who had his men violate said policy was subject to discipline.

As for knowing what "specialists existed" all I ever had to do was read USAF
publications which I did. Photo recon and its derivatice AFSCs has never been
classified.

I made no personal attack, it is evident you don't understand how the USAF
works, so please act like a mature adult.

As for how I wound up in Florida I was assigned to special ops for the last 14
years I was in. Think Hurlburt, Duke and Eglin. As for those "counterterrorist
ops" I was there and you weren't.

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired