Use of remote pilots in the future?

writes:

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
writes:

Sing For Supper wrote:

Is there an effort to develop flight software and avionics integration
to allow for a remote pilot (using remote control) to co pilot a general
aviation plane? I with SatNav readily available and with cameras on the
nose (regular and night vision) there is really no reason that any GA
plane with advanced glass panel avionics could not be remotely flown.
The technology is all there and working in drones, radio controlled
model aircraft. An incorporation of fly-by-wire technology, satellite
communications and all computerized cockpits can be configured to be
remotely flown.

And the reason for doing this would be?

The reason the military does it is because no crew gets killed when the
aircraft is shot down.

And because the aircraft can be lighter, and can have a smaller
stealthier shape, and because the aerobatics possible aren't limited by
the G tolerance of an on-board pilot. Oh, and can stay up longer
(changing shifts of pilot on the ground, rather than either requiring
immensely long shifts by one pilot, or taking on even more weight for
additional crew).

The military has never cared much how much an aircraft weighes nor how
long the crews stay in the air.

Nonsense. They've pushed limits the civilians won't touch, but they've
been very concerned with fatigue effects on performance.

Have you any clue how long SAC B52's used to stay in the air with one
crew?

Very long of course, but the B52 was a bit more set up for it. Also
some of those missions were planned as essentially one-way when it
counted.

And UAV's don't do acrobatics; why would they?

Avoiding missiles and anti-aircraft fire. And in the future, possibly
using guns on other aircraft and UAVs.

The reason the cops want to do it is because they think UAV surveillance
is cheaper than manned surveillance but cops generally run helicopters
for manned surveillance so the whole issue is muddled as they could
save lots of money just by switching from helicopters to fixed wing.

Being able to fly slower than a running suspect is useful, isn't it?
I'd think a fixed-wing would have to lose sight and loop back and hope
to reacquire the suspect -- which mostly would fail fairly soon.

Police helicopters do not hover over suspects, they fly slow circles
around a point, just like you can do in a fixed wing.

Not "over", of course.

Police helicopters very seldom hover or land anywhere other than at an
airport.

I seem them hovering, or moving very slowly, quite frequently. No idea
what they're actually doing of course.
--
David Dyer-Bennet, ; http://dd-b.net/
Snapshots: http://dd-b.net/dd-b/SnapshotAlbum/data/
Photos: http://dd-b.net/photography/gallery/
Dragaera: http://dragaera.info

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
writes:

David Dyer-Bennet wrote:
writes:

Sing For Supper wrote:

Is there an effort to develop flight software and avionics integration
to allow for a remote pilot (using remote control) to co pilot a general
aviation plane? I with SatNav readily available and with cameras on the
nose (regular and night vision) there is really no reason that any GA
plane with advanced glass panel avionics could not be remotely flown.
The technology is all there and working in drones, radio controlled
model aircraft. An incorporation of fly-by-wire technology, satellite
communications and all computerized cockpits can be configured to be
remotely flown.

And the reason for doing this would be?

The reason the military does it is because no crew gets killed when the
aircraft is shot down.

And because the aircraft can be lighter, and can have a smaller
stealthier shape, and because the aerobatics possible aren't limited by
the G tolerance of an on-board pilot. Oh, and can stay up longer
(changing shifts of pilot on the ground, rather than either requiring
immensely long shifts by one pilot, or taking on even more weight for
additional crew).

The military has never cared much how much an aircraft weighes nor how
long the crews stay in the air.

Nonsense. They've pushed limits the civilians won't touch, but they've
been very concerned with fatigue effects on performance.

Yeah, that's why the standard tactic is to issure uppers to the troops.

Have you any clue how long SAC B52's used to stay in the air with one
crew?

Very long of course, but the B52 was a bit more set up for it. Also
some of those missions were planned as essentially one-way when it
counted.

Set up for what; have you ever seen the inside of a B52?

Once in the air it is a giant pain in the ass to do anything other than
sit in your seat and there are no redundant crew members.

And UAV's don't do acrobatics; why would they?

Avoiding missiles and anti-aircraft fire. And in the future, possibly
using guns on other aircraft and UAVs.

Pure fantasy.

The reason the cops want to do it is because they think UAV surveillance
is cheaper than manned surveillance but cops generally run helicopters
for manned surveillance so the whole issue is muddled as they could
save lots of money just by switching from helicopters to fixed wing.

Being able to fly slower than a running suspect is useful, isn't it?
I'd think a fixed-wing would have to lose sight and loop back and hope
to reacquire the suspect -- which mostly would fail fairly soon.

Police helicopters do not hover over suspects, they fly slow circles
around a point, just like you can do in a fixed wing.

Not "over", of course.

Meaning what, exactly?

Police helicopters very seldom hover or land anywhere other than at an
airport.

I seem them hovering, or moving very slowly, quite frequently. No idea
what they're actually doing of course.

There is a big differnce between moving at all and hovering in the amount
of maintenance required on a helicopter, which is why it is avoided if
possible.

Howver, police helicopters very seldom hover or land anywhere other than at an
airport.


--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

David Dyer-Bennet wrote in :

I seem them hovering, or moving very slowly, quite frequently. No idea
what they're actually doing of course.


Are you aware of the height-velocity curve for helicopters? There
are altitude and speed combinations that you just want to avoid
if at all possible as in case of an engine failure, you don't have
the altitude and/or speed to effect a (relatively) safe landing.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Height-velocity_diagram

All the police helicopters I've ever seen fly fast low circles
around their point of interest. Probably around 500-1000 feet AGL.

News helis, OTOH, I've seen them hover fixed, but at thousands of
feet. But then, many have gyrostabilized long range telephoto cameras.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

I envision this as a subscription service for owners of mid-sized to larger business jets where certified pilots type rated for the aircraft are engaged as co-pilots via remote satellite connection to the aircraft. These remote co-pilots would have access (in real time) to all information that the pilot has (including systems, navcom, onboard conditions (sensors), visual of exterior (cameras) and video communication with the pilot. The use of the forward nose camera and night vision would be essential for the remote pilot. For safety there would be two levels of PIC detection. For cruise, there would be a big green confirm button on the panel, console or yolk in the PIC side that would have to be pressed every five minutes or so to continually verify the physical presence. Verbal and video verification of the PIC would be maintained at short intervals as well. If at any point PIC response was not detected the remote pilot would take over. There would also be a big red kill (switch) button that could be pressed by the PIC at any time to disengage the remote pilot in case of remote hostile takeover of the plane. For critical stages of flight there would be constant monitoring of PIC input and visual/audio monitoring to simulate the remote co-pilot's "immediate proximity level awareness" and involvement in piloting the aircraft. From a technology standpoint, I am aware that this would require software and hardware upgrades of course, but a system like Collins Proline 21 is not so far off from this capability is it? The development of this would have to be a concerted effort between avionics developers such as Rockwell Collins; aircraft companies such as Gulfstream, Dassault, Bombardier; the company to provide the service (and their venture capitalists) and government certification (the REAL obstacle).

The central command center for the remote pilots would be a control room with state of the art simulators (satcom linked to corresponding aircraft) for all major biz. jets (and turbo craft perhaps). It would be 24 hr. staffed with type rated pilots. Under normal conditions these pilots could monitor and handle co-pilot functions of two aircarft at one time. When a situation of need arises with an aircraft a remote pilot commands a single aircraft as needed handing off the other aircraft in normal conditions to another remote pilot. With modern biz jets so laden with sensors, cameras advanced satnav, satcom and fly-by-wire systems, this would be a a very short leap, technologically, for those aircraft. The real leap (particularly in the ultra-conservative aviation industry) is the psychological leap. Getting past the nay-sayers. As for the technology... it's already here. It's just packaging what we have for the biz. jet industry.

The benefits would be two fold.
1. To allow the owner pilot or the single hired pilot the flexibility to fly a two pilot rated aircraft (most biz jets) any time unattended.
2. Reduce the cost of a co-pilot. The economics are simple. With a remote copilot monitoring two aircraft the cost of the pilot is reduced to half (minus subscription costs). Also as a subscription service with hourly rates further cost reduction would found through the elimination of a salaried co-pilot in lieu of an hourly rate remote pilot service. And as more new biz jets enter service the more the costs of the service could be reduced. (I know this will ruffle the feathers of a lot of pilots because I understand that it's a very tough business to be in right now.

Sing For Supper wrote in
:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
A poll associated with this post was created, to vote and see the
results, please visit
http://forums.yourdomain.com.au/showthread.php?t=155177
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question: Would you like to see remote co pilot technology developed?

- Absolutely!
- Perhaps
- I don't think so
- You are out of your mind!
------------------------------------------------------------------------


First of all, this is usenet, and you are obviously accessing it
through a web based proxy. Therefore, those of us with REAL
usenet access and REAL usenet software cannot vote in your poll.
That is, unless we wanted to go to that website and register an
account, which is unlikely to happen for a one time event.

Second, your provided URL is incorrect, so how do you expect
anyone to get to your poll anyway?

But on to the subject of your poll.

My vote? "You are out of your mind!"

The nice thing here is I can explain why I think you are out of
your mind. And just for the record, I'm not a pilot (someday???)
but an avid aviation enthusiast. I do flight sims; not to 'play'
but to learn. My following comments are based on that, some
additional knowledge from my experience with electronics,
experience as an R/C flyer, and a healthy dose of some basic
logic and critical thinking.

First of all, you're adding an additional (and extrordinary)
layer of complication to the process of flying, that also
adds an additional layer (and I say again, extrordinary) risk
in case of failure.

Next, you're suggesting making this additional layer part time.
A copilot is there because the plane is complex enough that
the pilot would soon get overloaded if they were to try to do
EVERYTHING themselves. Yes, they can do it I'm sure, but it's
not easy and by having that second brain IN THE COCKPIT, it
makes it much less likely for something to be missed. By having
your remote copilot working multiple aircraft, and only monitoring
any one aircraft part time, the copilot does not have the
historical situational awareness of what the aircraft and the
pilot have been doing before the 'emergency' or 'need' arose.

Then, you want the pilots attention diverted every five minutes
(or so) to press a big shiny green button in order to let the
part time remote copilot know he's awake. What if he's in the
can/comode/loo? - oh wait, he CAN'T cuz there's no copilot to
take over while he takes care of natures call.

Related to that, the whole system can be overridden by the use
of a big shiny red button. I'm sure anyone wanting to hijack
a plane would love that.

And what about the logistics of the data link? Do you realize how
much bandwidth your talking about? And this is just for ONE plane.
Now multiply that by the thousands or more aircraft that are in
the air at the same time.

Further, on security, adding passcodes or pin numbers to prevent
unauthorized use (remote hijack of the copilot controls, or use
of the big shiny red button to PREVENT copilot control) just
adds additional workload. Not something you want in an emergency
situation.

Then there's the liability issue. Who get's sued when something
goes wrong? And it WILL go wrong.

And perhaps most importantly, why fix what's not broke?

Finally, although I've attempted to pick your idea to death, take
it as constructive criticism. If you can overcome these issues,
and I'm sure the REAL pilots around here can come up with more than
I have, then you might have something. Nothing wrong with trying
to come up with new ideas as that's how progress is made.

But then again, there's a reason for a pilot (and copilots). The
human brain is by far still the most powerful computer that can be
put in control of a flying machine. Putting that computer in a remote
location will only slow down response times and hinder making
rapid decisions in a situation.

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

On 1/17/2012 1:35 PM, Skywise wrote:
Sing For wrote in
:

------------------------------------------------------------------------
A poll associated with this post was created, to vote and see the
results, please visit
http://forums.yourdomain.com.au/showthread.php?t=155177
------------------------------------------------------------------------
Question: Would you like to see remote co pilot technology developed?

- Absolutely!
- Perhaps
- I don't think so
- You are out of your mind!
------------------------------------------------------------------------

First of all, this is usenet, and you are obviously accessing it
through a web based proxy. Therefore, those of us with REAL
usenet access and REAL usenet software cannot vote in your poll.
That is, unless we wanted to go to that website and register an
account, which is unlikely to happen for a one time event.

Second, your provided URL is incorrect, so how do you expect
anyone to get to your poll anyway?

But on to the subject of your poll.

My vote? "You are out of your mind!"

The nice thing here is I can explain why I think you are out of
your mind. And just for the record, I'm not a pilot (someday???)
but an avid aviation enthusiast. I do flight sims; not to 'play'
but to learn. My following comments are based on that, some
additional knowledge from my experience with electronics,
experience as an R/C flyer, and a healthy dose of some basic
logic and critical thinking.

First of all, you're adding an additional (and extrordinary)
layer of complication to the process of flying, that also
adds an additional layer (and I say again, extrordinary) risk
in case of failure.

Next, you're suggesting making this additional layer part time.
A copilot is there because the plane is complex enough that
the pilot would soon get overloaded if they were to try to do
EVERYTHING themselves. Yes, they can do it I'm sure, but it's
not easy and by having that second brain IN THE COCKPIT, it
makes it much less likely for something to be missed. By having
your remote copilot working multiple aircraft, and only monitoring
any one aircraft part time, the copilot does not have the
historical situational awareness of what the aircraft and the
pilot have been doing before the 'emergency' or 'need' arose.

Then, you want the pilots attention diverted every five minutes
(or so) to press a big shiny green button in order to let the
part time remote copilot know he's awake. What if he's in the
can/comode/loo? - oh wait, he CAN'T cuz there's no copilot to
take over while he takes care of natures call.

Related to that, the whole system can be overridden by the use
of a big shiny red button. I'm sure anyone wanting to hijack
a plane would love that.

And what about the logistics of the data link? Do you realize how
much bandwidth your talking about? And this is just for ONE plane.
Now multiply that by the thousands or more aircraft that are in
the air at the same time.

Further, on security, adding passcodes or pin numbers to prevent
unauthorized use (remote hijack of the copilot controls, or use
of the big shiny red button to PREVENT copilot control) just
adds additional workload. Not something you want in an emergency
situation.

Then there's the liability issue. Who get's sued when something
goes wrong? And it WILL go wrong.

And perhaps most importantly, why fix what's not broke?

Finally, although I've attempted to pick your idea to death, take
it as constructive criticism. If you can overcome these issues,
and I'm sure the REAL pilots around here can come up with more than
I have, then you might have something. Nothing wrong with trying
to come up with new ideas as that's how progress is made.

But then again, there's a reason for a pilot (and copilots). The
human brain is by far still the most powerful computer that can be
put in control of a flying machine. Putting that computer in a remote
location will only slow down response times and hinder making
rapid decisions in a situation.

Brian
Seconded

"Sing For Supper" wrote in message
...
- You are out of your mind!
------------------------------------------------------------------------

I envision this as a subscription service for owners of mid-sized to
larger business jets where certified pilots type rated for the aircraft
are engaged as co-pilots via remote satellite connection to the
aircraft.

In my humble opinion, You are out of your mind. The costs of that system would
far exceed the expense of a copilot, Unfortunately for them, copilots are cheap
and plentiful..

Vaughn