US Rules Committee Policy on Permitting S/W for Tablets, PNAs,Smartphones etc.

Hi John,

I am still in the dark about the actual implementation. As I asked before via mail what is your position on the following features of XCSoar:

* AH based on GPS/Vario/Airspeed
* AH based on internal/external gyro (forbidden, but not implemented in any version of XCSoar yet)
* METAR download (forbidden, right? how is it different from requesting it via VHF?)
* Live Tracking via 3G/4G (only upload, no download)
* Flarm radar functionality

Does the application need to make sure that data/voice services are not used? Is it enough to enable the plane mode in the smartphone? I wouldn't know how our software should be able to block incoming voice calls which are not part of our software...

On Feb 24, 2:09*pm, Tobias Bieniek
wrote:
Hi John,

I am still in the dark about the actual implementation. As I asked before via mail what is your position on the following features of XCSoar:

* AH based on GPS/Vario/Airspeed
* AH based on internal/external gyro (forbidden, but not implemented in any version of XCSoar yet)
* METAR download (forbidden, right? how is it different from requesting it via VHF?)
* Live Tracking via 3G/4G (only upload, no download)
* Flarm radar functionality

Does the application need to make sure that data/voice services are not used? Is it enough to enable the plane mode in the smartphone? I wouldn't know how our software should be able to block incoming voice calls which are not part of our software...

Hi Tobias,
WRT US Rules only:
1. AH based on GPS/Vario/Airspeed - although unlikely this can be
effectively used for cloud flying still not allowed.
2. AH based on gyro - not allowed
4. All incoming data stream based weather data is forbidden,
regardless of the technology (cell,satellite, VHF, VLF). Listening to
non-specific voice broadcast (e.g. ATIS) is ok,
5. There is no current restriction on Flarm radar functionality but be
aware this may change next year.
QT

On Feb 24, 2:21*pm, "John Godfrey (QT)"
wrote:
On Feb 24, 2:09*pm, Tobias Bieniek
wrote:

Hi John,

I am still in the dark about the actual implementation. As I asked before via mail what is your position on the following features of XCSoar:

* AH based on GPS/Vario/Airspeed
* AH based on internal/external gyro (forbidden, but not implemented in any version of XCSoar yet)
* METAR download (forbidden, right? how is it different from requesting it via VHF?)
* Live Tracking via 3G/4G (only upload, no download)
* Flarm radar functionality

Does the application need to make sure that data/voice services are not used? Is it enough to enable the plane mode in the smartphone? I wouldn't know how our software should be able to block incoming voice calls which are not part of our software...

Hi Tobias,
WRT US Rules only:
1. AH based on GPS/Vario/Airspeed - although unlikely this can be
effectively used for cloud flying still not allowed.
2. AH based on gyro - not allowed
4. All incoming data stream based weather data is forbidden,
regardless of the technology (cell,satellite, VHF, VLF). Listening to
non-specific voice broadcast (e.g. ATIS) is ok,
5. There is no current restriction on Flarm radar functionality but be
aware this may change next year.
QT

I think there is an issue here. Many of us have PDAs or PNAs without
any sensors usable to provide an AH function. XCSoar has some dead
code that could be qualified as supporting AH display but it is
useless without sensors. LK8000 has a page that shows estimated bank
angle based on GPS position changes. If these two open source products
are qualified as illegal there will be substantial impact on contest
attendance. I know of many that use XCSoar and LK8000. I am using
LK8000 as back up software on a PNA that does not have any sensors so
it is useless as an AH function.

So please explain what the text from the explanation document means
"It will be the responsibility of the pilot to ensure that programs
and applications that could make these devices functional as AH
equipment are not installed." I am in particular interested in
"functional as AH". Does this mean functional because there is a
display and sensors or functional because there is some display like
estimated bank angle based on GPS data alone? This is very important
and before you answer please think about the impact of your answer. I
understand a ban on true AH capabilities but I don't understand a ban
related to GPS signal processing alone without sensors. I can achieve
the same by zooming into my moving map. I will see there my turns
precisely. What is the difference?

Andrzej Kobus

On Feb 24, 3:44*pm, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Feb 24, 2:21*pm, "John Godfrey (QT)"
wrote:









On Feb 24, 2:09*pm, Tobias Bieniek
wrote:

Hi John,

I am still in the dark about the actual implementation. As I asked before via mail what is your position on the following features of XCSoar:

* AH based on GPS/Vario/Airspeed
* AH based on internal/external gyro (forbidden, but not implemented in any version of XCSoar yet)
* METAR download (forbidden, right? how is it different from requesting it via VHF?)
* Live Tracking via 3G/4G (only upload, no download)
* Flarm radar functionality

Does the application need to make sure that data/voice services are not used? Is it enough to enable the plane mode in the smartphone? I wouldn't know how our software should be able to block incoming voice calls which are not part of our software...

Hi Tobias,
WRT US Rules only:
1. AH based on GPS/Vario/Airspeed - although unlikely this can be
effectively used for cloud flying still not allowed.
2. AH based on gyro - not allowed
4. All incoming data stream based weather data is forbidden,
regardless of the technology (cell,satellite, VHF, VLF). Listening to
non-specific voice broadcast (e.g. ATIS) is ok,
5. There is no current restriction on Flarm radar functionality but be
aware this may change next year.
QT

I think there is an issue here. Many of us have PDAs or PNAs without
any sensors usable to provide an AH function. XCSoar has some dead
code that could be qualified as supporting AH display but it is
useless without sensors. LK8000 has a page that shows estimated bank
angle based on GPS position changes. If these two open source products
are qualified as illegal there will be substantial impact on contest
attendance. I know of many that use XCSoar and LK8000. I am using
LK8000 as back up software on a PNA that does not have any sensors so
it is useless as an AH function.

So please explain what the text from the explanation document means
"It will be the responsibility of the pilot to ensure that programs
and applications that could make these devices functional as AH
equipment are not installed." I am in particular interested in
"functional as AH". Does this mean functional because there is a
display and sensors or functional because there is some display like
estimated bank angle based on GPS data alone? This is very important
and before you answer please think about the impact of your answer. I
understand a ban on true AH capabilities but I don't understand a ban
related to GPS signal processing alone without sensors. I can achieve
the same by zooming into my moving map. I will see there my turns
precisely. What is the difference?

Andrzej Kobus

I fly with a Tru-Trak and LK8000 V3.0 loaded on a iPAQ310 with a
external GPS engine. I flew close to 3 hours yesterday with the Tru-
Trak on and toggled into the LK8000 "AH" page fairly regularly to see
how the 2 bits of information compared.

IMO there is no comparison, the AH on the LK8000 would do nothing but
distract me while the sailplane eventually came
apart.................if I was reckless enough to think it would help
in an IMC event. The Tru-Trak: at least it will help me if caught on
top and I have no choice but to descend thru a layer.

In my 30 years or so of soaring I've needed a gyro 2 times, that alone
makes it part of my panel for keeps.

Brad

The fake AH in LK8000 is there as an emergency tool to help a pilot get out
of a cloud, when there is nothing else better left.
Getting into a cloud can happen for a number of reasons, expecially when the
weather is changing a lot for an incoming cold front, and all of a sudden a
cloud cover is under you.
I think this tool is better "than a kick in the axx" in such situations,
when all you want is to keep flying straight to get out.

This said, it would be very easy for us to remove the page (which can be
disabled even now, by the user), and print a clear statement that
this tool is not part of the software.

This would not make any difference to those that think they can cheat with
such a AH.
Because anybody can get the code, change a line, and make that statement
appear in any case.

So our position is very simple. We shall do what Xcsoar people will decide
to do for their project.
If they dont accept this kind of a treat, we shall not accept it either.
If they deliver a special US version, we shall also do the same.

Paolo
LK8000 project
www.lk8000.it






"Brad" ha scritto nel messaggio
...
On Feb 24, 3:44 pm, Andrzej Kobus wrote:
On Feb 24, 2:21 pm, "John Godfrey (QT)"
wrote:









On Feb 24, 2:09 pm, Tobias Bieniek
wrote:

Hi John,

I am still in the dark about the actual implementation. As I asked
before via mail what is your position on the following features of
XCSoar:

* AH based on GPS/Vario/Airspeed
* AH based on internal/external gyro (forbidden, but not implemented
in any version of XCSoar yet)
* METAR download (forbidden, right? how is it different from
requesting it via VHF?)
* Live Tracking via 3G/4G (only upload, no download)
* Flarm radar functionality

Does the application need to make sure that data/voice services are
not used? Is it enough to enable the plane mode in the smartphone? I
wouldn't know how our software should be able to block incoming voice
calls which are not part of our software...

Hi Tobias,
WRT US Rules only:
1. AH based on GPS/Vario/Airspeed - although unlikely this can be
effectively used for cloud flying still not allowed.
2. AH based on gyro - not allowed
4. All incoming data stream based weather data is forbidden,
regardless of the technology (cell,satellite, VHF, VLF). Listening to
non-specific voice broadcast (e.g. ATIS) is ok,
5. There is no current restriction on Flarm radar functionality but be
aware this may change next year.
QT

I think there is an issue here. Many of us have PDAs or PNAs without
any sensors usable to provide an AH function. XCSoar has some dead
code that could be qualified as supporting AH display but it is
useless without sensors. LK8000 has a page that shows estimated bank
angle based on GPS position changes. If these two open source products
are qualified as illegal there will be substantial impact on contest
attendance. I know of many that use XCSoar and LK8000. I am using
LK8000 as back up software on a PNA that does not have any sensors so
it is useless as an AH function.

So please explain what the text from the explanation document means
"It will be the responsibility of the pilot to ensure that programs
and applications that could make these devices functional as AH
equipment are not installed." I am in particular interested in
"functional as AH". Does this mean functional because there is a
display and sensors or functional because there is some display like
estimated bank angle based on GPS data alone? This is very important
and before you answer please think about the impact of your answer. I
understand a ban on true AH capabilities but I don't understand a ban
related to GPS signal processing alone without sensors. I can achieve
the same by zooming into my moving map. I will see there my turns
precisely. What is the difference?

Andrzej Kobus

I fly with a Tru-Trak and LK8000 V3.0 loaded on a iPAQ310 with a
external GPS engine. I flew close to 3 hours yesterday with the Tru-
Trak on and toggled into the LK8000 "AH" page fairly regularly to see
how the 2 bits of information compared.

IMO there is no comparison, the AH on the LK8000 would do nothing but
distract me while the sailplane eventually came
apart.................if I was reckless enough to think it would help
in an IMC event. The Tru-Trak: at least it will help me if caught on
top and I have no choice but to descend thru a layer.

In my 30 years or so of soaring I've needed a gyro 2 times, that alone
makes it part of my panel for keeps.

Brad