Liability Insurance for a Winch Operation?

On Tuesday, March 6, 2012 12:51:55 PM UTC-5, Randy wrote:
We are planning to add a winch operation at our airport (H71)
in the eastern Oklahoma area. If you are operating a winch,
what are you doing for liability insurance? How much are you
paying?

Thanks for your time!

Randy Teel
Tulsa, OK

I would be interested to learn what it is the winch insurance covers. Does anyone have that definition?


On Tuesday, March 6, 2012 12:51:55 PM UTC-5, Randy wrote:
We are planning to add a winch operation at our airport (H71)
in the eastern Oklahoma area. If you are operating a winch,
what are you doing for liability insurance? How much are you
paying?

Thanks for your time!

Randy Teel
Tulsa, OK

On Mar 6, 3:42*pm, GM wrote:
On Tuesday, March 6, 2012 12:51:55 PM UTC-5, Randy wrote:
We are planning to add a winch operation at our airport (H71)
in the eastern Oklahoma area. If you are operating a winch,
what are you doing for liability insurance? How much are you
paying?

Thanks for your time!

Randy Teel
Tulsa, OK

I would be interested to learn what it is the winch insurance covers. Does anyone have that definition?


I would be interested in "hull coverage", there is an investment to be
protected from theft or fire.
I would be interested in liability to the glider, a winch failure at a
critical time could result in loss of a glider.
I would be interested in liability to a person, caught with the rope,
hit by a glider during launch, operator hurt if a broken line
penetrates the crew area.

T

On Mar 6, 7:43*pm, T wrote:

Comments interspersed below...
I would be interested to learn what it is the winch insurance covers. Does anyone have that definition?

Contact an insurer like Costello for a sample policy. These things
change rapidly.

I would be interested in "hull coverage", there is an investment to be
protected from theft or fire.

Winches are vehicles covered by collision insurance. They can also be
covered by premises insurance. The coverage amount is whatever you
want to buy.

I would be interested in liability to the glider, a winch failure at a
critical time could result in loss of a glider.

It may seem outrageous to the uninformed but there is nothing a winch
can do to put a skilled pilot or his glider at risk. Winches don't
break gliders - pilots do.

I would be interested in liability to a person, caught with the rope,
hit by a glider during launch, operator hurt if a broken line
penetrates the crew area.

This question suggests the need for winch training. These things
should never happen at a well-run winch operation. However, if they
did, they would be covered by the winch liability policy. Again the
coverage is whatever you want to buy.

As an example of how safe winch operations can be, look at the German
accident statistics. The last numbers I have say they did 1.7 million
launches for 3 fatalities in 17 total accidents. Compare that to US
aero tow accidents with far fewer launches. I have no doubt, given
the same level of skill, winch launch is at least a couple of orders
of magnitude safer than aero tow.

On Mar 6, 7:58*pm, Bill D wrote:
On Mar 6, 7:43*pm, T wrote:

Comments interspersed below...

I would be interested to learn what it is the winch insurance covers. Does anyone have that definition?

Contact an insurer like Costello for a sample policy. *These things
change rapidly.



I would be interested in "hull coverage", there is an investment to be
protected from theft or fire.

Winches are vehicles covered by collision insurance. *They can also be
covered by premises insurance. *The coverage amount is whatever you
want to buy.

I would be interested in liability to the glider, a winch failure at a
critical time could result in loss of a glider.

It may seem outrageous to the uninformed but there is nothing a winch
can do to put a skilled pilot or his glider at risk. *Winches don't
break gliders - pilots do.

I would be interested in liability to a person, caught with the rope,
hit by a glider during launch, operator hurt if a broken line
penetrates the crew area.

This question suggests the need for winch training. *These things
should never happen at a well-run winch operation. *However, if they
did, they would be covered by the winch liability policy. *Again the
coverage is whatever you want to buy.

As an example of how safe winch operations can be, look at the German
accident statistics. *The last numbers I have say they did 1.7 million
launches for 3 fatalities in 17 total accidents. *Compare that to US
aero tow accidents with far fewer launches. *I have no doubt, given
the same level of skill, winch launch is at least a couple of orders
of magnitude safer than aero tow.

I agree with everything you say.
Assets need to be protected, property insurance, premises insurances,
operations insurance.
And in event the pilot screws up and wreaks his glider and perhaps
injures himself, the family or estate will be after any pocket they
can find.
And yes, a well run operation should not have personal injuries to
anyone, but we all know accidents happen.
Remember the "spectator" injury during a launch at the national
contest in Tonopah years ago.

T

Remember the "spectator" injury during a launch at the national
contest in Tonopah years ago.


I remember Tonopah well...

I agree that winching can be much safer than aerotow. It is very
important that you get experienced people to train you before starting
up a winch operation. There was no additional charge to our liability
coverage for adding a winch launch to our operation. That was many
years ago tho.

Boggs

On Mar 6, 10:01*pm, T wrote:

Remember the "spectator" injury during a launch at the national
contest in Tonopah years ago.

T

I do remember. That operation would have violated a major rule of
winch launch. That rule is no one or thing can occupy an exclusion
area between the glider and winch. If someone enters the exclusion
area, the launch is held until the "deck" is clear. The exclusion
area will have slightly different definitions depending on airfield
layout but it is designed to prevent Tonopah-like accidents even in
extreme loss of control situations.

Aero tow operations would be well advised to copy this rule.

This concept has been extended to the hook-up operation by using Tost
quick-links. The strop/safety rope is attached to the glider without
being attached to the winch rope. The final safety rope-winch rope
connection is made by someone standing out of harm's way and then only
when the pilot signals readiness. This way inadvertent rope motion
can't put the hook-up/wing runner at risk.

Winch operations have very carefully thought out safety procedures
which must be scrupulously observed. It's easier to get people to
obey safety rules with winch launch since it LOOKS dangerous even
though it isn't.

Bill, I find that interesting. I have never seen that done in many winch
operations at different sites in the UK, and we have a different practice
(from the remote hook up) to avoid a different scenario.

Do you have a complete set of your winch safety precautions? I would be
interested to compare it with our UK norms (not that we have a complete
detailed set all in one place covering all UK operations – but we have
some national ones, and I have seen quite a few operations in practice).

Regards – Chris N.

At 17:31 07 March 2012, Bill D wrote:
I do remember. That operation would have violated a major rule of
winch launch. That rule is no one or thing can occupy an exclusion
area between the glider and winch. If someone enters the exclusion
area, the launch is held until the "deck" is clear. The exclusion
area will have slightly different definitions depending on airfield
layout but it is designed to prevent Tonopah-like accidents even in
extreme loss of control situations.

Aero tow operations would be well advised to copy this rule.

This concept has been extended to the hook-up operation by using Tost
quick-links. The strop/safety rope is attached to the glider without
being attached to the winch rope. The final safety rope-winch rope
connection is made by someone standing out of harm's way and then only
when the pilot signals readiness. This way inadvertent rope motion
can't put the hook-up/wing runner at risk.

Winch operations have very carefully thought out safety procedures
which must be scrupulously observed. It's easier to get people to
obey safety rules with winch launch since it LOOKS dangerous even
though it isn't.

On Mar 7, 7:13*pm, Chris Nicholas wrote:
Bill, I find that interesting. I have never seen that done in many winch
operations at different sites in the UK, and we have a different practice
(from the remote hook up) to avoid a different scenario.

Do you have a complete set of your winch safety precautions? *I would be
interested to compare it with our UK norms (not that we have a complete
detailed set all in one place covering all UK operations – but we have
some national ones, and I have seen quite a few operations in practice).

Regards – Chris N.

At 17:31 07 March 2012, Bill D wrote:
*I do remember. *That operation would have violated a major rule of







winch launch. *That rule is no one or thing can occupy an exclusion
area between the glider and winch. *If someone enters the exclusion
area, the launch is held until the "deck" is clear. *The exclusion
area will have slightly different definitions depending on airfield
layout but it is designed to prevent Tonopah-like accidents even in
extreme loss of control situations.

Aero tow operations would be well advised to copy this rule.

This concept has been extended to the hook-up operation by using Tost
quick-links. *The strop/safety rope is attached to the glider without
being attached to the winch rope. *The final safety rope-winch rope
connection is made by someone standing out of harm's way and then only
when the pilot signals readiness. *This way inadvertent rope motion
can't put the hook-up/wing runner at risk.

Winch operations have very carefully thought out safety procedures
which must be scrupulously observed. *It's easier to get people to
obey safety rules with winch launch since it LOOKS dangerous even
though it isn't.

Chris, I've sent you my "Field Operations Guide".

I recently re-read the BGA winch operation and training guides and
find them dramatically improved in the last few years.

http://aircrashed.com/cause/cLAX02LA231.shtml

Scary. Will keep this very much in mind at our contest this summer.

Sean
F2

On Tuesday, March 6, 2012 9:43:03 PM UTC-5, T wrote:
On Mar 6, 3:42*pm, GM wrote:
On Tuesday, March 6, 2012 12:51:55 PM UTC-5, Randy wrote:
We are planning to add a winch operation at our airport (H71)
in the eastern Oklahoma area. If you are operating a winch,
what are you doing for liability insurance? How much are you
paying?

Thanks for your time!

Randy Teel
Tulsa, OK

I would be interested to learn what it is the winch insurance covers. Does anyone have that definition?


I would be interested in "hull coverage", there is an investment to be
protected from theft or fire.
I would be interested in liability to the glider, a winch failure at a
critical time could result in loss of a glider.
I would be interested in liability to a person, caught with the rope,
hit by a glider during launch, operator hurt if a broken line
penetrates the crew area.

T

I would be interested in "hull coverage", there is an investment to be
protected from theft or fire.
Agree - a winch is an investment and asset for a club.

I would be interested in liability to the glider, a winch failure at a
critical time could result in loss of a glider.
So - is there an insurance covering the glider when the tow-plane's engine fails at 200ft over the airport fence? And when this happens, do you follow the tow-plane to the crash site? No, you release and switch to plan 'B'. So why would it be any different with a winch launch? If the winch fails, you land - depending on when it happens - straight ahead, downwind or after executing an abreviated pattern.

I would be interested in liability to a person, caught with the rope,
hit by a glider during launch, operator hurt if a broken line penetrates the crew area.
What - you plan on launching right across Grand Central Station? No person is permitted in front of the tow-plane or glider during the launch. The same applies for winch launch operations. Using Spectra and the right tackle will make broken lines a thing of the past.

I am still not sure what the winch insurance offered through the SSA actually covers.





On Tuesday, March 6, 2012 9:43:03 PM UTC-5, T wrote:
On Mar 6, 3:42*pm, GM wrote:
On Tuesday, March 6, 2012 12:51:55 PM UTC-5, Randy wrote:
We are planning to add a winch operation at our airport (H71)
in the eastern Oklahoma area. If you are operating a winch,
what are you doing for liability insurance? How much are you
paying?

Thanks for your time!

Randy Teel
Tulsa, OK

I would be interested to learn what it is the winch insurance covers. Does anyone have that definition?


I would be interested in "hull coverage", there is an investment to be
protected from theft or fire.
I would be interested in liability to the glider, a winch failure at a
critical time could result in loss of a glider.
I would be interested in liability to a person, caught with the rope,
hit by a glider during launch, operator hurt if a broken line
penetrates the crew area.

T