WGC Mid-air reported

it is simple - flarm dosn't work if there are 30 gliders at one lift...
btw somme notices about FB dangerous flying was before this case so before using flarm more importand look out

On Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:17:21 AM UTC-4, wrote:
it is simple - flarm dosn't work if there are 30 gliders at one lift... btw somme notices about FB dangerous flying was before this case so before using flarm more importand look out

it is simple - flarm dosn't work if there are 30 gliders at one lift...
Interesting! Is that statement based on personal experience or just an assumption? Have you flown with 30 (P-)FLARM equipped gliders in one thermal - or even 10 of them, for that matter?

btw somme notices about FB dangerous flying was before this case so before using flarm more importand look out
The same was said when GPS navigation was introduced .....

Flarm hasn't just been introduced, it's been in use for years (in
Europe). It is recognised that in large gaggles Flarm is irrelevant.

The same was said when GPS navigation was introduced .....

On Sunday, August 19, 2012 7:59:51 AM UTC-4, Mark Dickson wrote:
Flarm hasn't just been introduced, it's been in use for years (in Europe).. It is recognised that in large gaggles Flarm is irrelevant.

Mark - I am well aware of the fact that FLARM has been in use for years in Europe and the rest of the world and that it has a few short-commings but I am talking about Power-FLARM (P-FLARM) which is different and was just introduced in the US this year. So, please let's keep that in mind when discussing the incident at the worlds.

On Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:29:06 AM UTC-6, GM wrote:
On Sunday, August 19, 2012 7:59:51 AM UTC-4, Mark Dickson wrote:

Flarm hasn't just been introduced, it's been in use for years (in Europe). It is recognised that in large gaggles Flarm is irrelevant.



Mark - I am well aware of the fact that FLARM has been in use for years in Europe and the rest of the world and that it has a few short-commings but I am talking about Power-FLARM (P-FLARM) which is different and was just introduced in the US this year. So, please let's keep that in mind when discussing the incident at the worlds.

Indeed!

Keep in mind it is still possible to collide when both pilots see each other. All it takes is for one to zig instead of a zag. It could have been as simple as a momentary error in judgement. At the level of the WGC, pilots are not just skilled they're also aggressive. Maybe separation got too small and closing rates got too high for just a second.

Is P-Flarm perfect? Of course not. Is it useful? Definitely.

On Sunday, August 19, 2012 8:29:06 AM UTC-4, GM wrote:
... I am talking about Power-FLARM (P-FLARM) which is different

No it is not. PowerFLARM runs the identical core code
as original FLARM. PowerFLARM does have better radios,
ADS-B, PCAS... which are not relevant to this discussion.

At 11:36 19 August 2012, GM wrote:
On Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:17:21 AM UTC-4, wrote:
it is simple - flarm dosn't work if there are 30 gliders at one lift...
btw somme notices about FB dangerous flying was before this case so
before
using flarm more importand look out

The same was said when GPS navigation was introduced .....

As a convinced long term user of Flarm, I can state confidently if you pay
much attention to it (and come to that GPS navigation) in a gaggle of 30
aggressively flown gliders, you are much more likely to hit something than
if you ignore it.

It's a valuable piece of kit, just not for that situation.

On Sunday, August 19, 2012 11:12:30 AM UTC-4, Richard Brisbourne wrote:
At 11:36 19 August 2012, GM wrote: On Sunday, August 19, 2012 6:17:21 AM UTC-4, wrote: it is simple - flarm dosn't work if there are 30 gliders at one lift... btw somme notices about FB dangerous flying was before this case so before using flarm more importand look out The same was said when GPS navigation was introduced ..... As a convinced long term user of Flarm, I can state confidently if you pay much attention to it (and come to that GPS navigation) in a gaggle of 30 aggressively flown gliders, you are much more likely to hit something than if you ignore it. It's a valuable piece of kit, just not for that situation.

Hi Richard,
could not agree more - nothing replaces the Mark-8 eye balls kept outside! P-FLARM is new to the US and I have flown with it for only a few month, including one national contest. The most P-FLARM equipped gliders I have flown with in one gaggle was 3 and since all flew well behaved, there were no flase alarms. Thinking that one can use P-FLARM or any FLARM to barrel through the sky blindly is a recipe for disaster. I trust that P-FLARM will become a valuable addition.
Uli

Do we need to wait 1+ year for the final NTSB report to maybe find out if the mid air happened in a gaggle and if they had Flarm on board?
I am sure many knows the answer, how about sharing it with the rest of us?

Ramy