Another stall spin

Bob, I'm not quite sure what your point is. In fact, you seem at first to suggest that practicing unusual attitude recoveries is a bad thing!

That flies completely in the face of all aviation safety training I've ever had. You have to know the beast and how to defeat it (or at least hold it at bay). If you are not practicing departure recoveries at a safe altitude, how the hell are you going to have any chance of recovering following an unplanned (aren't they all?) upset at low altitude, whether on the ridge or in the pattern.

But spin training in a Blanik, while fun, may be actually counterproductive if you fly high-performance glass. You have to train in your ship, or something very similar.

I agree that there is nothing new to learn - but the same old lesson has to be relearned and practiced - Plan for emergencies, practice how to cope with them, avoid situations that exceed your actual, current skill.

And painfully, learn from other's tragic mistakes - their loss may save you....

Kirk
66

On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 10:16:31 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:

Bob, I'm not quite sure what your point is. In fact, you seem at first to suggest that practicing unusual attitude recoveries is a bad thing!

I agree with Kirk. Just because practicing spin entry/recovery at altitude isn't identical to spin entry/recovery at 300' doesn't mean that practice at altitude isn't worthwhile - and it's definitely a lot easier on the nerves than practicing at 300'. There are other things we can do to try to become aware of the different atmospheric, geometric and mindset issues down low and under pressure, but the basic airmanship of knowing how your glider spins/recovers is a universal good in my estimation.

9B

On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 2:13:48 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 10:16:31 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:



Bob, I'm not quite sure what your point is. In fact, you seem at first to suggest that practicing unusual attitude recoveries is a bad thing!



I agree with Kirk. Just because practicing spin entry/recovery at altitude isn't identical to spin entry/recovery at 300' doesn't mean that practice at altitude isn't worthwhile - and it's definitely a lot easier on the nerves than practicing at 300'. There are other things we can do to try to become aware of the different atmospheric, geometric and mindset issues down low and under pressure, but the basic airmanship of knowing how your glider spins/recovers is a universal good in my estimation.



9B

I'm pretty sure I don't understand this. Why not practice spins at 300 ft? If you thermal at 300 ft, either A) you are quite sure you will never spin at 300 ft or B), you think you can safely recover from 300 ft. spin. If (A) there is no need to practice spins at 300 or any other altitude. If B, then 300 ft spin practice is perfectly safe.

I think for most pilots, recovering from a spin initiated at 300 ft would scare the hell out of them. You should really not be intentionally putting yourself in a position where the hell can be scared out of you. If you are engaging in an activity that cannot be safely practiced, how then can it be safely done without practice?

On 8/28/2012 5:25 PM, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 2:13:48 PM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 10:16:31 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:



Bob, I'm not quite sure what your point is. In fact, you seem at first
to suggest that practicing unusual attitude recoveries is a bad thing!



I agree with Kirk. Just because practicing spin entry/recovery at
altitude isn't identical to spin entry/recovery at 300' doesn't mean that
practice at altitude isn't worthwhile - and it's definitely a lot easier
on the nerves than practicing at 300'. There are other things we can do
to try to become aware of the different atmospheric, geometric and
mindset issues down low and under pressure, but the basic airmanship of
knowing how your glider spins/recovers is a universal good in my
estimation.



9B

I'm pretty sure I don't understand this. Why not practice spins at 300 ft?
If you thermal at 300 ft, either A) you are quite sure you will never spin
at 300 ft or B), you think you can safely recover from 300 ft. spin. If (A)
there is no need to practice spins at 300 or any other altitude. If B, then
300 ft spin practice is perfectly safe.

I think for most pilots, recovering from a spin initiated at 300 ft would
scare the hell out of them. You should really not be intentionally putting
yourself in a position where the hell can be scared out of you. If you are
engaging in an activity that cannot be safely practiced, how then can it be
safely done without practice?


Now *I'm* puzzled! :-)

Re-reading my earlier post, I can't find where I even *hinted* "practicing
unusual attitude recoveries is a bad thing!"

But since it was implicitly asked what my point was, I'll try and be succinct.
(Warning! There was more than one point.) In no particular order...
- skills practice is good;
- practicing some skills (e.g. departures from controlled flight at low
altitudes) is like practicing Russian roulette;
- skill won't help if your margins are too thin;
- certain margins (e.g. "safe spinning height") are inherently unquantifiable
if life-continuing precision is one's goal.

Bob - wimpoid - W.

Hi All, I think two things have not been mentioned about your practice
spins...

We have all tried spinning from S+L flight, even by quickly raising the
nose and maybe kicking in a bit of rudder, but have you tried replicating
the circumstances of the crash...
i.e. Entering a 45deg angle of bank orbit, reducing the speed, then
kicking in a boot-full of pro rudder. This is soooo much different to
the S+L entry.

The second point I would like to make is that several posts refer to flying
at the (IAS.) stall speed. This again is going to be different with the
wings at a banked angle... typically add 7 knotts at 45 deg and 16 knotts
at 60 deg AOB. (to take account of the increased G loading.) and make sure
it is your inner wing tip is doing that speed.

Pete

At 00:41 29 August 2012, BobW wrote:
On 8/28/2012 5:25 PM, jfitch wrote:
On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 2:13:48 PM UTC-7,
wrote:
On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 10:16:31 AM UTC-7, kirk.stant wrote:



Bob, I'm not quite sure what your point is. In fact, you seem at
first
to suggest that practicing unusual attitude recoveries is a bad
thing!



I agree with Kirk. Just because practicing spin entry/recovery at
altitude isn't identical to spin entry/recovery at 300' doesn't mean
that
practice at altitude isn't worthwhile - and it's definitely a lot
easier
on the nerves than practicing at 300'. There are other things we can
do
to try to become aware of the different atmospheric, geometric and
mindset issues down low and under pressure, but the basic airmanship
of
knowing how your glider spins/recovers is a universal good in my
estimation.

OK, I guess my reading skills were not functioning very well when I read your first post (need more practice at altitude). We pretty much agree.

On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 7:41:20 PM UTC-5, BobW wrote:

Re-reading my earlier post, I can't find where I even *hinted* "practicing

unusual attitude recoveries is a bad thing!"



But since it was implicitly asked what my point was, I'll try and be succinct.

(Warning! There was more than one point.) In no particular order...

- skills practice is good;

- practicing some skills (e.g. departures from controlled flight at low

altitudes) is like practicing Russian roulette;

- skill won't help if your margins are too thin;

- certain margins (e.g. "safe spinning height") are inherently unquantifiable

if life-continuing precision is one's goal.



Bob - wimpoid - W.

On Tuesday, August 28, 2012 6:25:32 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:

I think for most pilots, recovering from a spin initiated at 300 ft would scare the hell out of them. You should really not be intentionally putting yourself in a position where the hell can be scared out of you. If you are engaging in an activity that cannot be safely practiced, how then can it be safely done without practice?

The point of practicing recognition and recovery from departures (incipient spins) at altitude is to learn to recognize the symptoms and the immediate recovery procedures that apply to your glider. If you never really slow your glider down and actually recover - or not - from a departure, then your minimum altitude had better include enough to learn - which is probably a lot more than 1000'!

This is similar to the fiasco the FAA in the US went through with twin-engine VMC training long ago (60s?): FAA required single engine VMC demonstration at low altitude, and of course lost a bunch due to loss of control too low to recover. Dumb and totally unnecessary, of course, and was quickly changed to allow the demonstration at a high enough altitude to allow recovery if VMC became spin recovery. But the training for control at VMC is still required.

(VMC: minimum controllable speed on one engine - below that you run out of rudder & aileron to maintain control and depart into a spin, aggravated by the good engine running at full power - not fun at any altitude but deadly down low.)

Kirk