XCSoar / LK8000

I would recommend making a fairly quick choice between the software options and putting the time into studying the chosen version. They will all do your job well. If you spend too long choosing you will not only waste time but also end up confused.

On Monday, March 11, 2013 10:13:55 AM UTC-5, waremark wrote:
I would recommend making a fairly quick choice between the software options and putting the time into studying the chosen version. They will all do your job well. If you spend too long choosing you will not only waste time but also end up confused.

So, Max, Paolo or US pilots:

Is either of these two packages useable in a US contest? Do they depict US start, turnpoint and finish definitions, tell you if you're under the top for 2 minutes, help plan time completion for area and mat tasks, compute final glides to a finish cylinder with a minimum altitude, compute final glides around additional turnpoints (mat)? Can you input a task in less than 15 minutes? Is there a quick task A task B option (almost all in air task changes are now A to B)?

I tried xcsoar many years ago. Charlie Spratt changed the task in the air. 15 minutes later on my second reboot, I swore it off. Is contest task entry any easier than back then?

If not, is anyone working on a "US contest" package for either program?

Please no flame wars on how stupid our rules are for using cylinders, 2 minute rules, in air task changes, etc. The rules are what they are. The question is, can this software help a pilot to deal with the rules as they are?

John Cochrane

On Monday, March 11, 2013 5:22:15 PM UTC+1, wrote:
Do they depict US start, turnpoint and finish definitions

Sorry, I don't know US task rules. If there's anything missing, you should write a ticket (http://bugs.xcsoar.org/newticket).

tell you if you're under the top for 2 minutes

I havn't heard of that feature, but then again, I don't fly contests. (I'm just one of several XCSoar developers, I don't know every part of XCSoar)

help plan time completion for area and mat tasks

Yes for AAT, never heard of "MAT".

compute final glides to a finish cylinder with a minimum altitude

Yes.

compute final glides around additional turnpoints (mat)?

Again, don't about about MAT.

Can you input a task in less than 15 minutes?

It usually takes me a minute on my Streak.

Is there a quick task A task B option (almost all in air task changes are now A to B)?

You mean you have two active tasks, and switch between the two? No, but thanks to our excellent task engine, that would not be hard to implement. If it's really useful for contest pilots.

I tried xcsoar many years ago. Charlie Spratt changed the task in the air. 15 minutes later on my second reboot, I swore it off. Is contest task entry any easier than back then?

The task engine and the task editor have been rewritten from scratch in XCSoar 6.0. XCSoar has come a very long way since the dark 5.x days.

If not, is anyone working on a "US contest" package for either program?

No, our goal is to have everything in the "mainline". So if any US pilot decides to hack XCSoar code, please contact us for merging the new features.

On Monday, March 11, 2013 11:32:55 AM UTC-5, Max Kellermann wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2013 5:22:15 PM UTC+1, wrote:

Do they depict US start, turnpoint and finish definitions



Sorry, I don't know US task rules. If there's anything missing, you should write a ticket (http://bugs.xcsoar.org/newticket).



tell you if you're under the top for 2 minutes



I havn't heard of that feature, but then again, I don't fly contests. (I'm just one of several XCSoar developers, I don't know every part of XCSoar)



help plan time completion for area and mat tasks



Yes for AAT, never heard of "MAT".



compute final glides to a finish cylinder with a minimum altitude



Yes.



compute final glides around additional turnpoints (mat)?



Again, don't about about MAT.



Can you input a task in less than 15 minutes?



It usually takes me a minute on my Streak.



Is there a quick task A task B option (almost all in air task changes are now A to B)?



You mean you have two active tasks, and switch between the two? No, but thanks to our excellent task engine, that would not be hard to implement. If it's really useful for contest pilots.



I tried xcsoar many years ago. Charlie Spratt changed the task in the air. 15 minutes later on my second reboot, I swore it off. Is contest task entry any easier than back then?



The task engine and the task editor have been rewritten from scratch in XCSoar 6.0. XCSoar has come a very long way since the dark 5.x days.



If not, is anyone working on a "US contest" package for either program?



No, our goal is to have everything in the "mainline". So if any US pilot decides to hack XCSoar code, please contact us for merging the new features..

Max,
I loaded every one of the above mentioned software packages on my new Avier (V2 sold by WingsAndWheels) plus Winpilot Pro and SeeYou Mobile for testing. Still trying to decide if I should abandon WinPilot which works very well for US contest flying.
However, running XCSoar on my new Nexus 7 just blows me away. The graphics and speed are unbelievable. Problem is, the Nexus is a little too big for the cockpit but I think the screen is very readable in sunlight with brighness turned up. Thanks for porting XCS for Android! I also use the Nexus and XCS to display flight data in Condor via Bluetooth.
Herb Kilian

On 03/11/2013 12:22 PM, wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2013 10:13:55 AM UTC-5, waremark wrote:
I would recommend making a fairly quick choice between the software options and putting the time into studying the chosen version. They will all do your job well. If you spend too long choosing you will not only waste time but also end up confused.

So, Max, Paolo or US pilots:

Hi John, I've been using XCSoar in contests since 2008 in US and Canada.
I hope I can answer your questions below.

Is either of these two packages useable in a US contest? Do they depict US start, turnpoint and finish definitions, tell you if you're under the top for 2 minutes, help plan time completion for area and mat tasks, compute final glides to a finish cylinder with a minimum altitude, compute final glides around additional turnpoints (mat)? Can you input a task in less than 15 minutes? Is there a quick task A task B option (almost all in air task changes are now A to B)?


US Start - yes

turnpoints and finish - yes

2 minute count down below top - yes

AAT/TAT completion and optimal distance based on current MC setting
(automatic or manual imput) - yes

MAT - set up same as TAT with smaller cyliners, functionality could be
improved (automatic TP selection or some such)

compute final glides to a finish cylinder with a minimum altitude - yes

compute final glides around additional turnpoints (mat)? - if you are
above final glide the computer switches to final glide mode regardles of
how many turnpoints are ahead (even has built in safety based on current
altitude as per your excellent article)

Can you input a task in less than 15 minutes? - current task programing
is probably the simplest i have ever used, 1 minute is not an exaggeration

Is there a quick task A task B option (almost all in air task changes
are now A to B) - absolutely, I typically program task a and b on the
ground and save them, if we are given dump tasks at the beginning of the
contest i punch them in and save them as well, ready to be loaded in the
air at any time

As any other system there are nuances to get around, but if you want I
can show you my setup next month in Perry..

Cheers,
Luke Szczepaniak





I tried xcsoar many years ago. Charlie Spratt changed the task in the air. 15 minutes later on my second reboot, I swore it off. Is contest task entry any easier than back then?

If not, is anyone working on a "US contest" package for either program?

Please no flame wars on how stupid our rules are for using cylinders, 2 minute rules, in air task changes, etc. The rules are what they are. The question is, can this software help a pilot to deal with the rules as they are?

John Cochrane

On Monday, March 11, 2013 12:22:15 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2013 10:13:55 AM UTC-5, waremark wrote:

I would recommend making a fairly quick choice between the software options and putting the time into studying the chosen version. They will all do your job well. If you spend too long choosing you will not only waste time but also end up confused.



So, Max, Paolo or US pilots:



Is either of these two packages useable in a US contest? Do they depict US start, turnpoint and finish definitions, tell you if you're under the top for 2 minutes, help plan time completion for area and mat tasks, compute final glides to a finish cylinder with a minimum altitude, compute final glides around additional turnpoints (mat)? Can you input a task in less than 15 minutes? Is there a quick task A task B option (almost all in air task changes are now A to B)?



I tried xcsoar many years ago. Charlie Spratt changed the task in the air.. 15 minutes later on my second reboot, I swore it off. Is contest task entry any easier than back then?



If not, is anyone working on a "US contest" package for either program?



Please no flame wars on how stupid our rules are for using cylinders, 2 minute rules, in air task changes, etc. The rules are what they are. The question is, can this software help a pilot to deal with the rules as they are?



John Cochrane

I spent most of three seasons using XCS for US contests. On Ipaq 3950s to start, later on Dell Streak 5. Nine or ten contests IIRC. Something important was always busted in software. Start rules, AAT task optimizer, little things :-/. I wrote lots of trouble tickets. Some got acted on right away, some never. I haven't used XCS since version 6.3.

There's a timer that can be used to tell you how long you have been under max height.

When things work in XCS, they work well. Task editing is easy on the ground. Task editing in flight depends on your interface, and all of the hardware that I am familiar with that runs XCSoar is touch screen driven. I grew to hate touch screens in flight. My big problem with a touch screen is that I have to look the display for every single poke. This sounds trivial. In fact it adds up to a lot of distraction.

There are better solutions for racing. The two that I am aware of that demonstrably work (i.e. guys win with them, a lot) are SN10 and ClearNav.

The reason that these devices work better is that they take about a quarter the head down time that XCSoar does. Better user interface, easier to read displays in about equal parts. Neither attempts to do nearly as much as XCSoar can, but an awful lot of what XCSoar can do isn't helpful for racing..

The best clues to efficient soaring are outside the window. Less distraction equals better performance in my cockpit, and probably yours too.

By way of disclosure, I work part time for CNi, however this post is my personal opinion, informed by experience.


Evan Ludeman / T8

On Monday, March 11, 2013 7:11:25 PM UTC+1, Evan Ludeman wrote:
I spent most of three seasons using XCS for US contests. On Ipaq 3950s to start, later on Dell Streak 5. Nine or ten contests IIRC. Something important was always busted in software. Start rules, AAT task optimizer, little things :-/. I wrote lots of trouble tickets. Some got acted on right away, some never.

Some never? The following points to a exhaustive list of all of your tickets we havn't worked on yet:

http://bugs.xcsoar.org/query?status=...%40g mail.com

This is exactly one ticket, one that can't be any less serious.

Yes, you found a lot of problems over the years (totalling 24), and that was your contribution to a better XCSoar, it helped a lot. Thousands of eyes find thousands of problems in such a complex software (nearly 26,000 users on Android alone). We do our best to deliver high quality to all those pilots, and we need input from people like you.

But please be honest. I know you want to drop some advertisement for your employer, but don't exaggerate the severity and number of open bugs.

On Monday, March 11, 2013 2:33:19 PM UTC-4, Max Kellermann wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2013 7:11:25 PM UTC+1, Evan Ludeman wrote:

I spent most of three seasons using XCS for US contests. On Ipaq 3950s to start, later on Dell Streak 5. Nine or ten contests IIRC. Something important was always busted in software. Start rules, AAT task optimizer, little things :-/. I wrote lots of trouble tickets. Some got acted on right away, some never.



Some never? The following points to a exhaustive list of all of your tickets we havn't worked on yet:



http://bugs.xcsoar.org/query?status=...%40g mail.com



This is exactly one ticket, one that can't be any less serious.



Yes, you found a lot of problems over the years (totalling 24), and that was your contribution to a better XCSoar, it helped a lot. Thousands of eyes find thousands of problems in such a complex software (nearly 26,000 users on Android alone). We do our best to deliver high quality to all those pilots, and we need input from people like you.



But please be honest. I know you want to drop some advertisement for your employer, but don't exaggerate the severity and number of open bugs.



Actually, inability to d/l waypoints to a 302 is a pretty serious defect *for me* since I use the 303 display routinely and travel to many different soaring sites (but only because the 302 has small memory and no way to manage multiple waypoint sets). Without that capability, I have to drag out a laptop, pop the canopy off to get under the panel, etc. That much of the interface was all very handy with the little Ipags that could run the Cambridge utility.

The fact remains *every* release of XCSoar I used had significant bugs that affected its utility in competition. If you've fixed some of the tickets I left behind since I bothered to look (roughly last June), thank you, perhaps it will help others.

Evan Ludeman / T8

On Monday, March 11, 2013 7:57:17 PM UTC+1, Evan Ludeman wrote:
If you've fixed some of the tickets I left behind since I bothered to look (roughly last June), thank you, perhaps it will help others.

Not true, your memory doesn't serve you well.

The latest ticket we touched was #2034, fixed on 2012/05/03, reported by you on 2012/04/24. That was just 3 days after you wrote your last ticket, and 6 days before your last XCSoar mailing list post.

On Monday, March 11, 2013 3:24:58 PM UTC-4, Max Kellermann wrote:
On Monday, March 11, 2013 7:57:17 PM UTC+1, Evan Ludeman wrote:

If you've fixed some of the tickets I left behind since I bothered to look (roughly last June), thank you, perhaps it will help others.



Not true, your memory doesn't serve you well.



The latest ticket we touched was #2034, fixed on 2012/05/03, reported by you on 2012/04/24. That was just 3 days after you wrote your last ticket, and 6 days before your last XCSoar mailing list post.

What I am thinking of is consistently bad wind information at high altitude in wave and that damned task optimizer, mentioned in my reply to Luke. I'll leave you to look up the details if you like (and you do seem to like) but these things were not "fixed" while I was around, even if someone closed the tickets.

T8