Buying a 1-35 pros and cons?

On 3/23/2013 5:44 PM, Dave Springford wrote:
I completely agree with the comment about a flap-only glider and would
advise against a 1-35 as a first glider unless you have lots of flap-only
power time.
No problem with that advice (even though I do not agree with it, reasons - or
at least examples - why I disagree noted in another post in this same thread)...


The problem is that flaps are digital, they are either on or off, unlike
the analogue nature of spoilers where you can vary their position as
required. With flaps, once they are on you are pretty much committed to
that glide path until touch down.
Um - no offense intended, Dave - but this is utter nonsense. In my -
hydraulically-actuated, more or less "single-shot" flapped HP-14, I flew every
approach (but two) always adding flaps...but that was only because the flap
actuation system didn't lend itself to modulation, and, it had so much drag
there was no NEED to ever modulate/decrease added drag...it had roughly a
somewhere between 2:1 to 4:1 glide angle with full flaps, near as I bothered
to quantify. In my - relatively weenily flapped w. consequently considerably
shallower approach cone (7:1 it's doing good) - Zuni with a "1-35C-like flap
actuation system," approaches (particularly in vertically gnarly conditions)
were regularly flown with flap modulation, sometimes from full on to full off.
It's no big deal, though doing so does require matching (not particularly
difficult...dare I say intuitive?) pitch inputs to maintain a consistent
speed. And of course, all our approaches are flown at a consistent speed, eh?

Now, roundout time I'd agree is no time to be messing with flaps...just as
it's no time to be messing with spoilers, except maybe for the relatively more
experienced in type pilot, possibly practicing something or other...



The other issue with the 1-35, (based on my one flight in one) is that I
found it about the most unstable glider I had ever flown. With most
gliders you can take your hand of the stick and it keeps going straight.
The 1-35 I flew instantly departed stable flight when I let go of the
stick. After landing, I described as a glider balanced on the head of a
pin.

I've never flown one, but 1st-generation Standard Cirri have been similarly
'head of a pin' described to me by several active-in-them pilots when we've
compared notes, as has (e.g.) the 1-36 'Sprite'. I think my
1st-high-performance-ship, 1-35C-owning brother would generally concur with
your 'head of a pin' assessment (I seem to recall he used that very expression
in a letter to me, in fact), though he personally ultimately found it to be an
asset, particularly on weak, rattily thermalled days, since the ship 'talked
to him' so much.


Get an LS4 or Discus, or even a Standard Cirrus, or if you are small
enough, a Libelle as your first ship.

Ruh roh. There's that pesky St'd Cirrus again! See above comment...
- - - - - -

To the OP, the above exchange beautifully illustrates the unavoidable
perplexities to be found in free advice!


Bob - believes some free advice is better than others - W.

I gotta laugh at the "head of a pin" analogy. Years back I swapped my LS-6a
with a friend for his ASW-20 (B, I think - it had the stiff wings). He
described the '6 by placing his hand, palm down, on a raised indes finger
(head of a pin). I thought the '20 was horribly stiff on the ailerons.

So, I guess it's all in the eye of the beholder...

BTW, I enjoyed flying the 1-35 before buying my first ship - a Mosquito.


"Bob Whelan" wrote in message
...
On 3/23/2013 5:44 PM, Dave Springford wrote:
I completely agree with the comment about a flap-only glider and would
advise against a 1-35 as a first glider unless you have lots of flap-only
power time.
No problem with that advice (even though I do not agree with it, reasons -
or at least examples - why I disagree noted in another post in this same
thread)...


The problem is that flaps are digital, they are either on or off, unlike
the analogue nature of spoilers where you can vary their position as
required. With flaps, once they are on you are pretty much committed to
that glide path until touch down.
Um - no offense intended, Dave - but this is utter nonsense. In my -
hydraulically-actuated, more or less "single-shot" flapped HP-14, I flew
every approach (but two) always adding flaps...but that was only because
the flap actuation system didn't lend itself to modulation, and, it had so
much drag there was no NEED to ever modulate/decrease added drag...it had
roughly a somewhere between 2:1 to 4:1 glide angle with full flaps, near
as I bothered to quantify. In my - relatively weenily flapped w.
consequently considerably shallower approach cone (7:1 it's doing good) -
Zuni with a "1-35C-like flap actuation system," approaches (particularly
in vertically gnarly conditions) were regularly flown with flap
modulation, sometimes from full on to full off. It's no big deal, though
doing so does require matching (not particularly difficult...dare I say
intuitive?) pitch inputs to maintain a consistent speed. And of course,
all our approaches are flown at a consistent speed, eh?

Now, roundout time I'd agree is no time to be messing with flaps...just as
it's no time to be messing with spoilers, except maybe for the relatively
more experienced in type pilot, possibly practicing something or other...



The other issue with the 1-35, (based on my one flight in one) is that I
found it about the most unstable glider I had ever flown. With most
gliders you can take your hand of the stick and it keeps going straight.
The 1-35 I flew instantly departed stable flight when I let go of the
stick. After landing, I described as a glider balanced on the head of a
pin.

I've never flown one, but 1st-generation Standard Cirri have been
similarly 'head of a pin' described to me by several active-in-them pilots
when we've compared notes, as has (e.g.) the 1-36 'Sprite'. I think my
1st-high-performance-ship, 1-35C-owning brother would generally concur
with your 'head of a pin' assessment (I seem to recall he used that very
expression in a letter to me, in fact), though he personally ultimately
found it to be an asset, particularly on weak, rattily thermalled days,
since the ship 'talked to him' so much.


Get an LS4 or Discus, or even a Standard Cirrus, or if you are small
enough, a Libelle as your first ship.

Ruh roh. There's that pesky St'd Cirrus again! See above comment...
- - - - - -

To the OP, the above exchange beautifully illustrates the unavoidable
perplexities to be found in free advice!


Bob - believes some free advice is better than others - W.

On 3/23/2013 5:44 PM, Dave Springford wrote:
The problem is that flaps are digital, they are either on or off, unlike
the analogue nature of spoilers...

On Mar 23, 7:16 pm, Bob Whelan wrote:
Um - no offense intended, Dave - but this is utter nonsense.

Not to be dogpiling this issue, but Bob (the other Bob) is right, and
Dave is way off base here. Really, I have to wonder where ideas like
that come from.

With only a little bit of practice, it is possible and practical to
modulate flap extension through the entire range from full negative to
full positive, and I have in fact done that very thing pretty
regularly.

The key thing to understand is that using large-span flaps takes what
I call "feed forward." If you change the flap setting and then wait
for feedback from the instruments and from your senses about your
speed and angle of attack, you will end up way behind the airplane. If
you wait for feedback, you'll end up stuck in a feedback loop.
Instead, you use feed-forward. As you deploy the flaps, you apply
forward pressure on the stick at the same time. As you retract the
flaps, you apply rearward pressure. You can adjust the amount of
pressure later based on sensory input; but any pressure change in the
right direction is way better than none at all.

Even though I am developing a glider with conventional airbrakes, I
would make one with landing flaps if I thought I could sell them that
way. Flaps give the very best bang for the buck in glidepath control,
and I miss the safety and security they always afforded me.

Thanks, Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24