Soaring Community Consumer Warning

Kevin,

I didn't (and still don't) consider Glidersource.com to be an aircraft dealer, Broker, Reseller, or Commercial vendor. Doesn't much matter what the legal interpretation of it is, I was trying to help folks sell their gliders not **** them off, so I apologized and haven't emailed Tim's clients in over 18 months.

Aircraft dealer? definitely not.

Broker? "A broker is an individual or party (brokerage firm) that arranges transactions between a buyer and a seller, and gets a commission when the deal is executed. A broker who also acts as a seller or as a buyer becomes a principal party to the deal." Nope not quite. I don't arrange a transaction or collect a commission.

To be a reseller, I'd have to buy each item and then resell it. Obviously not what I'm doing.

Commercial vendor? I'm not selling anything, so not that either.

Glider pilot and hobby web developer trying to make a kick-ass classified web site we can all enjoy? Oh, yeah, that's the one!

Bill


On Friday, March 29, 2013 6:10:23 PM UTC-7, Kevin Christner wrote:
Bill,



While I am sure many appreciate your efforts, since BobD has made such as issue of contracts, lets take a look at the one you broke by e-mailing people from Tim's want ads...



Bold Print: "These ads are intended for private sellers only, not for other aircraft dealers, Brokers, Resellers or Commercial vendors!"



Your site likely falls into the broker or reseller category. So you likely violated Tim's terms of service. Sorry, but true.



2C





I am the developer of Glidersource.com







I started working on this platform about two years ago at the urging of some others. We saw the W&W ad pages (10 pages of unsorted, center-justified, one photo, limited info ads), and other classified sites at the time as something that could be vastly improved upon.







Paul Remde of Cumulus Soaring, Inc., provided moral support (but no other affiliation) and replaced his own manually-operated classified effort with links to GliderSource.com.







In the early days, I (regretfully) wrote to some of the folks advertising their aircraft there to let them know of an ADDITIONAL source to list, that would allow more text, more photos, embedded video, contact feature, hit counter, search capabilities, 24/7 self-post & edit, and other modern web goodies.



I got a lot of thank you's and ONE objection, in Sept of '11.







I've never "scrapped" ads of of his site, and I can't speak about any accusations that anyone else has either. The worst I did was send some sellers a single email. Considering the email traffic these days, it seemed pretty harmless.







Tim responded by creating or enforcing his W&W-Only policy (as mentioned, it's still not possible to tell he has such a policy without testing the waters).



Tim emailed the folks who posted their ad in both places and, well, let them know that they won't be in two places any more. Tim did not contact me, but when a dozen sailplanes fell off my site in one day and I made inquiries why, it didn't take long for someone to forward me the email that Tim sent to him. At that I stopped the direct-email campaign and apologized, including to Tim.







I contacted Tim hoping we soaring-community folks could all "play nice" together, and even offered to do some web programming to help his site be more user and owner friendly. ( Tim told me he spends "hundreds of hours" on his classified ads. That's because he gets the photos by email, has to crop and resize, create the copy, post in a web page and manually do all this work rotating his 10 or more classified ad pages around. All that is automatic on my site.) Tim declined the offer.







Tim obviously has a vested interest in keeping his want ads as THE go-to place, as the classified site is at the doorstep to his store. That's fine, how could anyone object to that? I think what people object to is that the free market is not part of that plan, since his advertisers are constrained from posting on places Tim doesn't like. Ever heard of a newspaper the won't let you advertise on craigslist too?







I've had more than one person tell me first hand that when posting an glider ad on W&W Tim delayed posting the ad a few days while offering the seller less himself. Now, I can't swear that happened, because it didn't happen to me directly, but why would someone make that up?







My interest was to for there to be a classified ad site that was highly functional, easy to use, and that users could post ANYTHING soaring related. Last I checked W&W was aircraft and parts only. As of today GliderSource.com has 38 ads for instruments, 7 for soaring equipment, and a smattering in other categories, including sailplanes and motorgliders, and 9 wanted ads.







Knowing of Tim's policy, I felt it fair to advise my potential advertisers, before they go to the effort to create an ad only to have it shot down by T.M. So, without mentioning W&W, since that might seem like I was talking bad about it, I have the following notice on my home page:



- - - - -



What if I already have my item listed on another site?







Successful advertisers across many industries place their ads in many places, not just one. All soaring related ads are welcome here. But, a prominent glider classified provider does not appreciate this effort for glider and motorglider ads. Check with your current ad carrier to see if he requires exclusive handling of your ad. I think competition improves the market. What do you think?



- - - -







I'm still hoping that Tim will make the W&W ads easier to use (fewer pages, allow more info, more photos photos, sorted, search function, etc.) because he does have more sailplane ads than anywhere else. But it seems to me that as long as he's the 800 pound gorilla in the room, he doesn't feel he needs to improve his website to compete. (remember, I even offered to help him do it - I obviously have the software skills to do so).











In conclusion, it's hard to argue with Liam's posting:



"Who will corner the market for hosting free ads serving a dwindling niche



market, in the process capturing literally hundreds of page views per



month? As Sayre's law says, the conflict is bitter only because the



stakes are so small."

On Mar 30, 2:30*am, Bill Palmer wrote:
Kevin,

I didn't (and still don't) consider Glidersource.com to be an aircraft dealer, Broker, Reseller, or Commercial vendor. Doesn't much matter what the legal interpretation of it is, I was trying to help folks sell their gliders not **** them off, so I apologized and haven't emailed Tim's clients in over 18 months.

Aircraft dealer? definitely not.

Broker? "A broker is an individual or party (brokerage firm) that arranges transactions between a buyer and a seller, and gets a commission when the deal is executed. A broker who also acts as a seller or as a buyer becomes a principal party to the deal." Nope not quite. I don't arrange a transaction or collect a commission.

To be a reseller, I'd have to buy each item and then resell it. Obviously not what I'm doing.

Commercial vendor? I'm not selling anything, so not that either.

Glider pilot and hobby web developer trying to make a kick-ass classified web site we can all enjoy? *Oh, yeah, that's the one!

Bill







On Friday, March 29, 2013 6:10:23 PM UTC-7, Kevin Christner wrote:
Bill,

While I am sure many appreciate your efforts, since BobD has made such as issue of contracts, lets take a look at the one you broke by e-mailing people from Tim's want ads...

Bold Print: "These ads are intended for private sellers only, not for other aircraft dealers, Brokers, Resellers or Commercial vendors!"

Your site likely falls into the broker or reseller category. *So you likely violated Tim's terms of service. *Sorry, but true.

2C

I am the developer of Glidersource.com

I started working on this platform about two years ago at the urging of some others. We saw the W&W ad pages (10 pages of unsorted, center-justified, one photo, limited info ads), and other classified sites at the time as something that could be vastly improved upon.

Paul Remde of Cumulus Soaring, Inc., provided moral support (but no other affiliation) and replaced his own manually-operated classified effort with links to GliderSource.com.

In the early days, I (regretfully) wrote to some of the folks advertising their aircraft there to let them know of an ADDITIONAL source to list, that would allow more text, more photos, embedded video, contact feature, hit counter, search capabilities, 24/7 self-post & edit, and other modern web goodies.

I got a lot of thank you's and ONE objection, in Sept of '11.

I've never "scrapped" ads of of his site, and I can't speak about any accusations that anyone else has either. The worst I did was send some sellers a single email. Considering the email traffic these days, it seemed pretty harmless.

Tim responded by creating or enforcing his W&W-Only policy (as mentioned, it's still not possible to tell he has such a policy without testing the waters).

Tim emailed the folks who posted their ad in both places and, well, let them know that they won't be in two places any more. *Tim did not contact me, but when a dozen sailplanes fell off my site in one day and I made inquiries why, it didn't take long for someone to forward me the email that Tim sent to him. At that I stopped the direct-email campaign and apologized, including to Tim.

I contacted Tim hoping we soaring-community folks could all "play nice" together, and even offered to do some web programming to help his site be more user and owner friendly. ( Tim told me he spends "hundreds of hours" on his classified ads. That's because he gets the photos by email, has to crop and resize, create the copy, post in a web page and manually do all this work rotating his 10 or more classified ad pages around. All that is automatic on my site.) Tim declined the offer.

Tim obviously has a vested interest in keeping his want ads as THE go-to place, as the classified site is at the doorstep to his store. That's fine, how could anyone object to that? I think what people object to is that the free market is not part of that plan, since his advertisers are constrained from posting on places Tim doesn't like. Ever heard of a newspaper the won't let you advertise on craigslist too?

I've had more than one person tell me first hand that when posting an glider ad on W&W Tim delayed posting the ad a few days while offering the seller less himself. *Now, I can't swear that happened, because it didn't happen to me directly, but why would someone make that up?

My interest was to for there to be a classified ad site that was highly functional, easy to use, and that users could post ANYTHING soaring related. * *Last I checked W&W *was aircraft and parts only. *As of today GliderSource.com has 38 ads for instruments, 7 for soaring equipment, and a smattering in other categories, including sailplanes and motorgliders, and 9 wanted ads.

Knowing of Tim's policy, I felt it fair to advise my potential advertisers, before they go to the effort to create an ad only to have it shot down by T.M. *So, without mentioning W&W, since that might seem like I was talking bad about it, I have the following notice on my home page:

- - - - -

What if I already have my item listed on another site?

Successful advertisers across many industries place their ads in many places, not just one. All soaring related ads are welcome here. But, a prominent glider classified provider does not appreciate this effort for glider and motorglider ads. Check with your current ad carrier to see if he requires exclusive handling of your ad. I think competition improves the market.. What do you think?

*- - - -

I'm still hoping that Tim will make the W&W ads easier to use (fewer pages, allow more info, more photos photos, sorted, search function, etc.) because he does have more sailplane ads than anywhere else. But it seems to me that as long as he's the 800 pound gorilla in the room, he doesn't feel he needs to improve his website to compete. (remember, I even offered to help him do it - I obviously have the software skills to do so).

In conclusion, it's hard to argue with Liam's posting:

"Who will corner the market for hosting free ads serving a dwindling niche

market, in the process capturing literally hundreds of page views per

month? As Sayre's law says, the conflict is bitter only because the

stakes are so small."

Bill, what about putting a big Wing and Wheels add on you website for
free. Maybe that will solve a problem.

I agree Tim has the right to set his own rules, but I think the
community would benefit from a modern classified site like Bill's.

I buy from Tim not because I visit his classified site. I buy from him
because he has the best selection of things I need.

I sold my glider through his site. Thank you Tim. I sold my 302
through Bill's site. Thank you Bill. I would keep buying from Tim even
if I placed my add somewhere else simply because Tim always has things
I need. I mean ALWAYS.

I think the status quo is fine. Tim's approach is a bit dated, but it worked well for me.

But times are changing and "Information wants to be free".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Informa...nts_to_be_free

It is just a matter of time before some young blood takes up soaring, evaluates the status quo, and with absolutely no compunction decides to set up a master compilation website on an offshore server.

That website will scrape ALL of the ads for gliders from ALL of the sites that accept ads. It will catch on fast because it will be the definitive master list of gliders for sale, and it will have a lot of the modern features that we see on a site like glidersource.com

That website will not accept ads from sellers, so it will not be possible to punish someone for posting. There may be legal IP issues, but those are rather difficult to enforce, and easy to sidestep. To create a cash flow to cover expenses, that website will accept banner ads selected by Google. People buying gliders have disposable income and they are good prospects for a variety of high priced products.

I'm old fashioned about intellectual property and so I would never do this, but you know... kids these days.

If the person behind Glidersource had not made the mistakes of 1)accepting ads and 2)personally identifying himself, we would already be seeing this master list of gliders for sale.