Soaring Community Consumer Warning

Wow! With barely 24 hours to go, "Soaring Community Consumer Warning" appears to be the most popular RAS posting in the month of March, with nearly 2,000 views! This proves once again that soaring may be minuscule compared to the real world but our controversies are truly world class.

There are two other threads with postings that also occurred this month (albeit on 1 March) but they both began well befo "Turn coordinator? How dare they!" (2,000+ views) and, of course, "FAI (IGC) rules for US Club Class Nationals - Petition" with an astounding 4,648 views!

I recall a time when the only real way of reaching the soaring community in this country was by paying for a classified ad in Soaring magazine--which required mailing (via the post) or electronically communicating (via a land line phone call to the SSA's receptionist -- hahaha) the ad copy 45 days or more in advance. Today you can list or accept a glider ad one day and wake up the next morning having been demonized and/or defended several times over on this forum.

It seems clear there's little money to be made in classified ads now. Entrepreneurs are using free ads to entice pilots to existing sites that sell soaring equipment or to build traffic for new sites, the owners of which presumably are motivated, in addition to public service, by at least the dream of someday monetizing the eyeballs.

I'll attempt to close this out with a few thoughts. If you're still reading this thread, obviously brevity isn't one of your criteria so I won't bother to apologize for carrying on.

1. When you have a successful business and a respected reputation, you're more likely to be able to impose terms and conditions on pilots who wish to list their gliders on your site.

2. Having a master "compiled list" of all glider ads would be pretty cool for those shopping for a used sailplane. Those trying to build such as list face at least three obstacles: (1) push back from the successful incumbents; (2) reluctance by pilots to jeopardize their ability to list on what's perceived to be the most popular site(s); and (3) some pesky legal issues.

To the latter point, "screen scraping" (lifting ads from one site to post on another) has been the subject of much legal skirmishing in the U.S. and abroad (Southwest Airlines has been particularly aggressive). There's no clear rule of thumb but it's my impression, ironically, that scraping ads from a site that requires exclusivity is treading on thinner ice.

3. Several have used the term "contract". I'm not a lawyer but the primary issue appears to be whether there's an agreement for the pilot to give up the right to list elsewhere in exchange for being allowed to list on the most popular site. If it were ever litigated, that would probably be considered compensation. Otherwise, there's no real contract here. You can complain that you were damaged by not being able to list your glider for free but you won't get much sympathy from the courts...or anyone else here, apparently.. Tough crowd.

4. Much has been made of Tim Mara's not disclosing his policy of requiring exclusivity (if, in fact, that is the case universally or in isolated cases). I'm speculating but among other reasons may be that it might look a little heavy handed (although I think most pilots would understand) and that it does tend to create a contractual relationship wherein Tim takes on certain obligations as well: e.g., that the site will be up at all times, that the ads will read as communicated to him, that the photos will be displayed attractively, and that ads will not be positioned badly (e.g., too deep in the listings, in the wrong category, or directly next to an identical glider being sold for much less money). If this were the music business, there'd be lawyers swarming all over us. Instead, the only intense scrutiny seems to be from those who detect a conspiracy within the Rules Committee to disenfranchise the Club Class or owners of iPhones and the like.

5. There are some IP (intellectual property) issues. I'm not an expert here, either, but to the extent that a site owner puts some time and effort into building a classified area and then creates/edits the ads in it, he/she probably has some IP rights that would be infringed upon by anyone attempting to use those ads elsewhere.

6. Speaking of creating and editing ads, I noted with interest the bafflement of one earnest software developer that Tim spurned his offer of free software consulting to improve the W&W site. To me, this is a classic example of an IT guy genuinely wanting to "help" the business guy by taking a well-understood, easily maintained application that does the job pretty well and replacing it with a site that, while demonstrably better, the user can no longer maintain without the IT's guy's help. Big businesses long ago admitted defeat and turned over their systems to IT specialists. The reaction of soaring equipment site owners who currently maintain them personally or with a trusted friend or family member (or teenager) aren't necessarily ready to change, especially when the help is offered by someone who's just created a competitive site. And I can't blame them. Nor should you, Bill.

7. There's lots of room for creative solutions to the problems people have raised. Tim could cut a deal with the other site owners. Or he could make sure pilots had to come to his site to get the best info on a glider, by requiring a click thru for the price or full info or by offering a small promotional item with gliders purchased off his site (e.g., a new ClearNav flight computer with CNv vario with all the accessories). Perhaps out of the nearly 2,000 times this thread has been viewed will come a happy one that pleases everyone. Hey, it could happen!

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"
U.S.A.

Wow. This thread is what I call "circling the wagons."

No mention of such a policy is mentioned on the website. It is just very poor business to hang up on a customer and I find it hilarious how the "regulars" come to the aid of their dear friend so blatantly and dramatically. It almost brought a tear to my eye hearing the stories. if you listen to it with some sappy music you'll be balling your eyes out.

Obviously Tim was highly unpleasant to deal with if the result was this thread.

Tim is a nice guy (and always has been to me) but IMO he is wrong for treating a customer(s?) so poorly when there is no stated policy stated on his website. Clearly he does not want to publicize this policy or he would do so. If something is so important to him that he would pull an ad it then should be clearly stated on his website for all to see.

Wings and Wheels has been popular for want ads but it is not the only choice. But sure he can do whatever he wants...

Overall, I would say this thread has, unfortunately, been a bit damaging. Obviously not to the regulars, but maybe to the softer spoken folks who do not know the people involved. I don't think many customers want to be told post with me only or ill hammer you. Soaring cafe is not competitive. The other one must be a threat if he is so concerned as to take such drastic action and ruin his relationship with a customer and likely many others...

Tim...here is a funny clip Ill call "lighten up Francis!" Just sayin... ;-)

http://youtu.be/0OnpkDWbeJs

I am going to destroy all of these want ads sites in 1 week. Here it goes...

All, please feel welcomed to add your for sale equipment to a new Facebook page called "Free International Sailplane Want Ads."

You are welcomed to have your ad on any other similar website or just ours. You are welcomed to share your ad with any other Facebook user, via Facebook, or email or twitter or whatever.

Please join this new page and please share it with your soaring friends!

Here is the link: https://www.facebook.com/SailplaneWantAds

Enjoy!

Sean
F2

Interesting. I noticed that a recent RAS post (copied below, or link he https://groups.google.com/forum/m/?f...ng/OK8wPduHU-U) by glidersource.com included what I imagine is Bill Elliot's JS-1b. But if you click the link you can see that it is removed. This post was from March 7. So it has been removed in the past few weeks.

I imagine Bill (owner of soaring cafe) was recently strong armed in much the same way as the originator of this thread. Hilarious. This is just too funny.

Let the soaring want ad wars begin!

EN GARDE!

--------------------------------------------------------
Items listed alphabetically within each category.

*** Sailplane ***
Blanik L13 LZ12, (http://glidersource.com/cgi-bin/post.cgi?id=250 ) (photo)
Jonkers Sailplanes, JS-1B 18m, $139,900 (http://glidersource.com/cgi-bin/post.cgi?id=288 ) (photo)
L-23 Wingtip Extensions, $800 (http://glidersource.com/cgi-bin/post.cgi?id=209 ) (photo)
Lak12 LZ 615, (http://glidersource.com/cgi-bin/post.cgi?id=252 ) (photo)
Libelle Canopy, $ (http://glidersource.com/cgi-bin/post.cgi?id=210 ) (photo)
Nimbus 2B, $24000 (http://glidersource.com/cgi-bin/post.cgi?id=314 ) (photo)
Schweizer SGS 1-35 ("ZT"). S/N 30. , $ (http://glidersource.com/cgi-bin/post.cgi?id=244 ) (photo)
SZD.41.A Jantar Std. LZ604 , (http://glidersource.com/cgi-bin/post.cgi?id=251 )
T65C VEGA SPORT, £11500 (http://glidersource.com/cgi-bin/post.cgi?id=273 ) (photo)

http://soaringcafe.com/classified-ad...d=2&results=30

No Ad for Bills own JS1 on his own website, soaring cafe.

I wonder if W&W has been sending out strong men to shake down people who post ads in trade a plane too?

:-)

LOL!!!! ROTFL!!!!!!

Bill and any other advertiser are free to turn their glidersource.com ads on and off at their discretion at any time, for any reason they choose. Maybe because they're going on vacation, maybe because they want to conduct some marketing research, maybe because a sale is pending.
Adds turned off (or "paused" as I call it), can be turned back on without loss of content, emailing anyone, or having to comply with a world-domination policy.

Sean: Am I surprized Tim didn't take me up on the web programming offer? No, but it was sincere, nonetheless. Still, for the sake of sailplane shoppers, I hope he can figure out a way to sort, index, or categorize the nine or more pages of aircraft ads.