PowerFLARM USB 3 cables and ConnectMe to PowerFLARM through V7

Thanks Paul for the additional information. To be honest the whole model of how PowerFlarm handles logfile copying seems at best to be a hack! As such the next best alternate solution would be to let Oudie handle it. As of right now I don't have the USB port brought to the front of my panel and given how the USB stick copying of log files work, I really would prefer not to do that. I want to have some level of control (like every other device!) on what files get copied and when they get copied rather than plug the USB stick, power cycle and get ALL the logs...

Given that, I would really want to get either FlarmView or the Oudie to handle this with the right interface. And yes, that would mean using the serial port to transfer a file, but at the high baud rates on the line and given you typically transfer a single file, it shouldn't be too bad. Certainly much better than the alternate (IMO)!

I hope the PowerFlarm folks are listening and add the missing feature soon. It has been frustrating at times to be on the bleeding edge and waiting for things to get to working state...


On Wednesday, June 5, 2013 10:25:01 PM UTC-7, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi Morteza,



The problem isn't with the Oudie. As stated below, it is that the

PowerFLARM doesn't yet support fight log downloads through the serial port.

They must be done using a USB Flash Drive (PowerFLARM Core) or microSD

memory card (PowerFLARM Portable). Once FLARM updates the software to allow

flight log downloads through the serial port, then the Oudie will probably

be able to download flight logs from it - assuming they use the same flight

log transfer protocol used by previous FLARM units



But why would you want to wait for several minutes for a flight log download

through the serial port when using a memory device will get the job done in

5 seconds? I recommend that you try using a memory card.



Best Regards,



Paul Remde

Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

____________________________



"Morteza Ansari" wrote in message

...



Per posts on the Naviter site, I thought this was supposed to be fixed and

working with the latest version of Oudie firmware (4.40). Though I am still

getting the "external error (-9)" error when actually trying to download.





On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 8:31:16 PM UTC-7, Paul Remde wrote:

Hi Tim,







The Oudie and V7 would work with the PowerFLARM for flight log downloads,



except the PowerFLARM doesn't support that feature yet.







Best Regards,







Paul Remde



Cumulus Soaring, Inc.



_________________________________________







"Tim Taylor" wrote in message



...







Two comments/questions:







1. I had purchased a panel mount extension USB cable to allow me to plug

the



USB drive into the panel for upgrades and flight downloads. I didn't

think



anything about the cable type but after doing the install I can not

download



flights. I started looking at the cable and realized it is USB 3 (labeled



SSUSB with Blue tabs). I realized PowerFLARM did not work with USB 3

drive



but never thought about checking the extension cable type as well.







2. Will ConnectMe on an Oudie work with a PowerFLARM through a V7? I can



see the serial number but it will not access the flights. Would be nice

if



we could use that in the future to download flights.

Hi Morteza,

I hear what you are saying, but it sounds like you haven't even tried using
a USB Flash Drive to transfer files from the PowerFLARM. If you try it, you
may find that it is so extremely easy and fast that you'll be very happy
with it. Even if you have dozens and dozens of flight logs in the
PowerFLARM memory, the data transfer only takes 5 seconds. USB Flash Drives
can easily store the small amount of data hundreds of flight logs. I don't
think the PowerFLARM re-copies files that are already on the USB Flash
Drive.

The first time I transferred flight logs from a ClearNav or LX9000 using a
USB Flash Drive or SD memory card I was blown away by how fast and easy it
was. I was very happy not to need to wait 5 minutes for the data transfer
over the serial port. I have recently transferred many flight logs off
PowerFLARM units and find it very fast and easy.

I also hope that FLARM will add the ability to download flight logs over the
serial port in the near future.

Best Regards,

Paul Remde
Cumulus Soaring, Inc.
___________________________________________

"Morteza Ansari" wrote in message
...

Thanks Paul for the additional information. To be honest the whole model of
how PowerFlarm handles logfile copying seems at best to be a hack! As such
the next best alternate solution would be to let Oudie handle it. As of
right now I don't have the USB port brought to the front of my panel and
given how the USB stick copying of log files work, I really would prefer not
to do that. I want to have some level of control (like every other device!)
on what files get copied and when they get copied rather than plug the USB
stick, power cycle and get ALL the logs...

Given that, I would really want to get either FlarmView or the Oudie to
handle this with the right interface. And yes, that would mean using the
serial port to transfer a file, but at the high baud rates on the line and
given you typically transfer a single file, it shouldn't be too bad.
Certainly much better than the alternate (IMO)!

I hope the PowerFlarm folks are listening and add the missing feature soon.
It has been frustrating at times to be on the bleeding edge and waiting for
things to get to working state...


On Wednesday, June 5, 2013 10:25:01 PM UTC-7, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi Morteza,



The problem isn't with the Oudie. As stated below, it is that the

PowerFLARM doesn't yet support fight log downloads through the serial
port.

They must be done using a USB Flash Drive (PowerFLARM Core) or microSD

memory card (PowerFLARM Portable). Once FLARM updates the software to
allow

flight log downloads through the serial port, then the Oudie will probably

be able to download flight logs from it - assuming they use the same
flight

log transfer protocol used by previous FLARM units



But why would you want to wait for several minutes for a flight log
download

through the serial port when using a memory device will get the job done
in

5 seconds? I recommend that you try using a memory card.



Best Regards,



Paul Remde

Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

____________________________



"Morteza Ansari" wrote in message

...



Per posts on the Naviter site, I thought this was supposed to be fixed and

working with the latest version of Oudie firmware (4.40). Though I am
still

getting the "external error (-9)" error when actually trying to download.





On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 8:31:16 PM UTC-7, Paul Remde wrote:

Hi Tim,







The Oudie and V7 would work with the PowerFLARM for flight log
downloads,



except the PowerFLARM doesn't support that feature yet.







Best Regards,







Paul Remde



Cumulus Soaring, Inc.



_________________________________________







"Tim Taylor" wrote in message



...







Two comments/questions:







1. I had purchased a panel mount extension USB cable to allow me to plug

the



USB drive into the panel for upgrades and flight downloads. I didn't

think



anything about the cable type but after doing the install I can not

download



flights. I started looking at the cable and realized it is USB 3
(labeled



SSUSB with Blue tabs). I realized PowerFLARM did not work with USB 3

drive



but never thought about checking the extension cable type as well.







2. Will ConnectMe on an Oudie work with a PowerFLARM through a V7? I
can



see the serial number but it will not access the flights. Would be nice

if



we could use that in the future to download flights.

On Thursday, June 6, 2013 12:23:49 PM UTC-4, Paul Remde wrote:
Hi Morteza,



I hear what you are saying, but it sounds like you haven't even tried using

a USB Flash Drive to transfer files from the PowerFLARM. If you try it, you

may find that it is so extremely easy and fast that you'll be very happy

with it. Even if you have dozens and dozens of flight logs in the

PowerFLARM memory, the data transfer only takes 5 seconds. USB Flash Drives

can easily store the small amount of data hundreds of flight logs. I don't

think the PowerFLARM re-copies files that are already on the USB Flash

Drive.



The first time I transferred flight logs from a ClearNav or LX9000 using a

USB Flash Drive or SD memory card I was blown away by how fast and easy it

was. I was very happy not to need to wait 5 minutes for the data transfer

over the serial port. I have recently transferred many flight logs off

PowerFLARM units and find it very fast and easy.



I also hope that FLARM will add the ability to download flight logs over the

serial port in the near future.



Best Regards,



Paul Remde

Cumulus Soaring, Inc.

___________________________________________



"Morteza Ansari" wrote in message

...



Thanks Paul for the additional information. To be honest the whole model of

how PowerFlarm handles logfile copying seems at best to be a hack! As such

the next best alternate solution would be to let Oudie handle it. As of

right now I don't have the USB port brought to the front of my panel and

given how the USB stick copying of log files work, I really would prefer not

to do that. I want to have some level of control (like every other device!)

on what files get copied and when they get copied rather than plug the USB

stick, power cycle and get ALL the logs...



Given that, I would really want to get either FlarmView or the Oudie to

handle this with the right interface. And yes, that would mean using the

serial port to transfer a file, but at the high baud rates on the line and

given you typically transfer a single file, it shouldn't be too bad.

Certainly much better than the alternate (IMO)!



I hope the PowerFlarm folks are listening and add the missing feature soon.

It has been frustrating at times to be on the bleeding edge and waiting for

things to get to working state...





On Wednesday, June 5, 2013 10:25:01 PM UTC-7, Paul Remde wrote:

Hi Morteza,







The problem isn't with the Oudie. As stated below, it is that the



PowerFLARM doesn't yet support fight log downloads through the serial

port.



They must be done using a USB Flash Drive (PowerFLARM Core) or microSD



memory card (PowerFLARM Portable). Once FLARM updates the software to

allow



flight log downloads through the serial port, then the Oudie will probably



be able to download flight logs from it - assuming they use the same

flight



log transfer protocol used by previous FLARM units







But why would you want to wait for several minutes for a flight log

download



through the serial port when using a memory device will get the job done

in



5 seconds? I recommend that you try using a memory card.







Best Regards,







Paul Remde



Cumulus Soaring, Inc.



____________________________







"Morteza Ansari" wrote in message



...







Per posts on the Naviter site, I thought this was supposed to be fixed and



working with the latest version of Oudie firmware (4.40). Though I am

still



getting the "external error (-9)" error when actually trying to download.











On Tuesday, June 4, 2013 8:31:16 PM UTC-7, Paul Remde wrote:



Hi Tim,















The Oudie and V7 would work with the PowerFLARM for flight log

downloads,







except the PowerFLARM doesn't support that feature yet.















Best Regards,















Paul Remde







Cumulus Soaring, Inc.







_________________________________________















"Tim Taylor" wrote in message







...















Two comments/questions:















1. I had purchased a panel mount extension USB cable to allow me to plug



the







USB drive into the panel for upgrades and flight downloads. I didn't



think







anything about the cable type but after doing the install I can not



download







flights. I started looking at the cable and realized it is USB 3

(labeled







SSUSB with Blue tabs). I realized PowerFLARM did not work with USB 3



drive







but never thought about checking the extension cable type as well.















2. Will ConnectMe on an Oudie work with a PowerFLARM through a V7? I

can







see the serial number but it will not access the flights. Would be nice



if







we could use that in the future to download flights.

Also, to amplify a bit, with the latest display update you don't have to
recycle the power to copy the files. There's an item on the menu to
copy the IGC files. After you land, just plug in your flash drive and
twiddle the knob to get your flight!

Matt

Morteza,

thanks for your feedback. Can you elaborate on the 'hack'?

PowerFLARM doesn't copy all logs, only the ones that are not
yet on the stick.

Firmware, obstacle DB and licence updates are via USB as well, so you may want to
have a cable anyway (cost: $10). In the past, it has turned out to be less than trivial
to teach a large number of third party developers how to correctly implement
the FLARM RS232 protocols. This is another reason why we are a bit reluctant in that area.

Best
--Gerhard (FLARM dev mgr)



Thanks Paul for the additional information. To be honest the whole model of how PowerFlarm handles logfile copying seems at best to be a hack! As such the next best alternate solution would be to let Oudie handle it. As of right now I don't have the USB port brought to the front of my panel and given how the USB stick copying of log files work, I really would prefer not to do that. I want to have some level of control (like every other device!) on what files get copied and when they get copied rather than plug the USB stick, power cycle and get ALL the logs...

By hack I mean the fact that a power cycle is needed, there is no control over which files get copied (my understanding is that all files in powerflarm will get copied if they don't exist). On Sat. I had to get some files off and used a new USB stick and had to wait for it to copy all files. Also, other than the little LED on the brick itself I have no indication of whether the copy operation is done or not. The overall experience seems very poor with very little feedback to the user.

Making other non-frequent operations (FW, DB, license updates) more challenging might be acceptable, but even those I would love to use Oudie or the display device (in my case FlarmView).

Overall given the brick doesn't have a native user interface other than a single LED, all of these operations should be done via API/protocol where the front end devices like the Oudie or other displays can handle all these operations with proper user interface and feedback mechanism.

I hope this helps explain why I look at this as a "hack".


Cheers,
Morteza

On Thursday, June 6, 2013 5:47:14 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Morteza,



thanks for your feedback. Can you elaborate on the 'hack'?



PowerFLARM doesn't copy all logs, only the ones that are not

yet on the stick.



Firmware, obstacle DB and licence updates are via USB as well, so you may want to

have a cable anyway (cost: $10). In the past, it has turned out to be less than trivial

to teach a large number of third party developers how to correctly implement

the FLARM RS232 protocols. This is another reason why we are a bit reluctant in that area.



Best

--Gerhard (FLARM dev mgr)







Thanks Paul for the additional information. To be honest the whole model of how PowerFlarm handles logfile copying seems at best to be a hack! As such the next best alternate solution would be to let Oudie handle it. As of right now I don't have the USB port brought to the front of my panel and given how the USB stick copying of log files work, I really would prefer not to do that. I want to have some level of control (like every other device!) on what files get copied and when they get copied rather than plug the USB stick, power cycle and get ALL the logs...

Another example that I just noticed discussed in another thread is task declaration. I don't what word to describe the process other than a hack. To declare a task I have to take my config file, use a txt editor to edit it, put very human-unfriendly configuration statements, plug the usb stick, power cycle, hope I didn't make any mistake, left the USB stick there long enough, ... and go on with my task. I don't know about anyone else, but I would never trust I got that right for a serious task attempt!!!

We live in the world of smart phones, cloud services, proper UE, things should get easier not harder...

I am not trying to be too hard on the Flarm team. This is a wonderful tool and will help us save lives and I know it is not easy getting new products to market. However, a product advertised to do some functionality, should deliver on those promises. This is especially true in this case as a large number of consumers signed up to buy it before development was complete to help get it adopted.

On Monday, June 10, 2013 2:01:50 PM UTC-5, Morteza Ansari wrote:
By hack I mean the fact that a power cycle is needed, there is no control over which files get copied (my understanding is that all files in powerflarm will get copied if they don't exist). On Sat. I had to get some files off and used a new USB stick and had to wait for it to copy all files. Also, other than the little LED on the brick itself I have no indication of whether the copy operation is done or not. The overall experience seems very poor with very little feedback to the user.



Making other non-frequent operations (FW, DB, license updates) more challenging might be acceptable, but even those I would love to use Oudie or the display device (in my case FlarmView).



Overall given the brick doesn't have a native user interface other than a single LED, all of these operations should be done via API/protocol where the front end devices like the Oudie or other displays can handle all these operations with proper user interface and feedback mechanism.



I hope this helps explain why I look at this as a "hack".





Cheers,

Morteza



On Thursday, June 6, 2013 5:47:14 PM UTC-5, wrote:

Morteza,







thanks for your feedback. Can you elaborate on the 'hack'?







PowerFLARM doesn't copy all logs, only the ones that are not



yet on the stick.







Firmware, obstacle DB and licence updates are via USB as well, so you may want to



have a cable anyway (cost: $10). In the past, it has turned out to be less than trivial



to teach a large number of third party developers how to correctly implement



the FLARM RS232 protocols. This is another reason why we are a bit reluctant in that area.







Best



--Gerhard (FLARM dev mgr)















Thanks Paul for the additional information. To be honest the whole model of how PowerFlarm handles logfile copying seems at best to be a hack! As such the next best alternate solution would be to let Oudie handle it. As of right now I don't have the USB port brought to the front of my panel and given how the USB stick copying of log files work, I really would prefer not to do that. I want to have some level of control (like every other device!) on what files get copied and when they get copied rather than plug the USB stick, power cycle and get ALL the logs...

At 19:12 10 June 2013, Morteza Ansari wrote:
... and go on with my task. I don't know about anyone else, but I would
never trust I got that right for a serious task attempt!!!

Takes me back to what I said in a previous thread - paper declaration every
time on the important flights.

But to continue with this thread, I now have LX FlarmMouse, V7 and Oudie 2
running 4.40 and the whole process of downloading flights through ConnectMe
works like a dream.

At 19:12 10 June 2013, Morteza Ansari wrote:
... and go on with my task. I don't know about anyone else, but I would
never trust I got that right for a serious task attempt!!!

Takes me back to what I said in a previous thread - paper declaration every
time on the important flights.

But to continue with this thread, I now have LX FlarmMouse, V7 and Oudie 2
running 4.40 and the whole process of downloading flights through ConnectMe
works like a dream.

I would like to second Morteza's frustration with file transfer and task declaration on the brick. This is a headless device with no interface at all. if there was no need to interact with it, that would be fine, but It needs a front end of some kind to make it usable.

This is an IGC approved logger, and declaring a task by putting an edited text file on a USB stick, then transferring it by power cycling the whole thing and waiting for a blinking light you can't see to turn green..is appalling. At a minimum the user needs feedback that no mistakes were made.

For retrieving log files, should I dedicate a USB stick to the brick so it doesn't download every flight in memory each time the stick is inserted? if the stick is almost full of other stuff, what will happen? does it download newest flight files first and gracefully stop when it runs out of USB memory? Should I use a different stick for firmware updates, or is it ok to have the firmware upgraded every time I power cycle the brick if I forget to remove the config file? Should I give my dedicated USB stick to the contest scorer filled with irrelevant flights? Or should I erase all the repeatedly downloaded old flights off the contest USB stick each day?

Please, please fix this. ConnectMe works with almost every modern logger. It runs on PDAs and Oudie's, and laptops. It already has a decent interface and most pilots know how to use it. It's free, and it's already written and widely distributed. It would be a big win for your customers if you could make it work. Yes, the USB stick works, but your great product and your customers deserve a little better.

Matt

Thanks Matt,

you're asking some valid questions. I'll make sure they'll get answered
in future releases of the manual.

We're aware that not all the functionality of PF is available
for all the possible 'User Interfaces' (BF, FlarmView etc...), we're working
with the manufacturers to get them added. Feel free to direct
relevant feedback also to the display/flight computer etc. manufacturers.

re task declarations: Can be done via the RS232, should work with any
tool that already supported Classic FLARM. Manually editing flarmcfg.txt
was never considered a use case for the average user.

re IGC readout:
- Use a dedicated USB stick. Delete/backup your flights once per year,
it'll never get full (or how much do you fly? It can
be shared with F/W; the update is skipped if already installed.
- Power cycle is no longer needed with the BF display 3.2, other displays
should follow.

Contest scoring: Did you ever have a problem with a
contest scorer not accepting multiple flights on a stick? IGC files
are (intentionally) named so that the sorting order corresponds to the
chronology of flights. So it's easy to pick out the last one.

Best
--Gerhard (FLARM dev mgr)