How to landout on a steep uphill final?

On Monday, June 10, 2013 2:37:20 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Sunday, June 9, 2013 9:33:46 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:

A runway that I frequent has no straight ahead option for a rope break at 100 feet AGL. There is a however a highly recommended hayfield with a 90 degree turn from the takeoff heading onto the landout final. The field is 100 feet lower in elevation than the departure runway, so it is reachable if you do all the right things. For example, you need to get over the tops of the trees on the near side of the field.







So let's say the landing area is steep, say it rises 20 feet for a 200 run. Depending on when the hay was last cut, the vegetation height ranges from stubble to 30" of consistent grasses. The ground is likely to be very bumpy. Boulders have been removed from this field to facilitate haying machinery. There may be some dips, but no ditches and no hidden branches or stumps. There are power lines running down the right side of the field and there is a two lane paved road on the other side of a ditch at the end of the run out. There is sufficient run out, but not much to spare. The field gets more and more level as you get closer to the road. On the far side of the road is a cornfield, so flying high over the road is not a good option.







So I want to touch down with minimum energy. My first thought is to flair to level flight much higher than normal, say 10 feet above the ground after the flair, pull the stick back gradually to bleed off speed until the ground comes to meet my level flight. Careful not to stall prematurely of course.







OR do I flair at a normal height and ride the ground effect uphill? I imagine that I might fly into the slope and touch down with more energy than I would like and possibly do a ground loop or otherwise damage the glider (and/or my body). The field may tilt a bit left to right.







The fact that the field is tilting up steeply in front of me is going to distort my perception and that is the other reason that I'm inclined to flair deliberately high. That gives me more time to see what is happening and adjust.







Opinions and suggestions? I'm thinking about a particular field, but I'd kinda like to know in general how to approach this type of field because level fields are rare in my area.







I will of course discuss this with knowledgable people at my club, but I'd like to think about it and get some ideas before I bring it up at the airport.



I had a very rough landing in France in a security field that was actually an altiport. An altiport is on a steep uphill field or runway. Mine was a rough field, but the only know field to safely land withing 20 kilometers. Such is the flying in the French Alps.



Luckily, all I did was twist the landing gear and blow the tire, and scrape the gel coat off the bottom of my glider (as well as demoralize my ego) from my hard impact. I came to an abrupt stop 100 yards short of where I thought I would first touch down and roll onward. I had landing flaps configuration, which was an error for upslope landing. When I pulled hard to flair uphill, I had only drag and no lift from the wings. You need some good L over D to flair uphill. To say the least, I had every difficulty getting the glider back into the trailer without functioning wheel gear and not getting the landing gear door closed.



If I had to do it again, I would go into the flair with at least 65 knots with only minimal positive flap setting and aim farther down the field than my gut instinct would tell me. (Psychologically, your senses will tell you otherwise.) Because of the illusion that you are driving into the ground with too much speed, actually you do not have enough airspeed, and you are actually flying straight into the slope of the hill, you will touch before you ever intended without enough airspeed to pull up abruptly. You will actually have to flair "much higher" than your perceptions advises you to.



If you fly in rolling hill territory or in tall mountain territory, you must make study of this type of landing because you will eventually have to do it. Even Klaus Ohlmann, the world's best mountain gliding expert, has destroyed an Nimbus 2DM (and other gliders) landing at an altiport uphill. Take note of how difficult this can be for experts with tens of thousands of mountain gliding experience.



Happy mountain soaring, it is extremely rewarding with the challenge and the joy of the views. Nothing better in this life experience.

Lleweni Parc (AKA Looney Park). Final at 75kts minimum over the river to round out and land uphill and stop at the launch point. Much steeper than the 10/1 described by the OP.

Frank Whiteley

Having done this in a Capstan, landed OK, but as it had no wheelbrake it
rolled backwards at 25 kph, down the hill and into the gatepost. It took 11
months to rebuild the damage to the wings, elevator, tailplane and rear
fuselage.

IF your brake is suspect or you don't have one, groundloop the glider
sideways before you stop

Glen Douglas

At 05:02 11 June 2013, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Monday, June 10, 2013 2:37:20 PM UTC-6, wrote:
On Sunday, June 9, 2013 9:33:46 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
=20
A runway that I frequent has no straight ahead option for a rope
break
=
at 100 feet AGL. There is a however a highly recommended hayfield with a
9=
0 degree turn from the takeoff heading onto the landout final. The field
i=
s 100 feet lower in elevation than the departure runway, so it is
reachable=
if you do all the right things. For example, you need to get over the
top=
s of the trees on the near side of the field.
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
So let's say the landing area is steep, say it rises 20 feet for a
200
=
run. Depending on when the hay was last cut, the vegetation height
ranges
=
from stubble to 30" of consistent grasses. The ground is likely to be
very=
bumpy. Boulders have been removed from this field to facilitate haying
ma=
chinery. There may be some dips, but no ditches and no hidden branches
or
=
stumps. There are power lines running down the right side of the field
and=
there is a two lane paved road on the other side of a ditch at the end
of
=
the run out. There is sufficient run out, but not much to spare. The
fiel=
d gets more and more level as you get closer to the road. On the far
side
=
of the road is a cornfield, so flying high over the road is not a good
opti=
on.
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
So I want to touch down with minimum energy. My first thought is to
fl=
air to level flight much higher than normal, say 10 feet above the ground
a=
fter the flair, pull the stick back gradually to bleed off speed until
the
=
ground comes to meet my level flight. Careful not to stall prematurely
of
=
course.
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
OR do I flair at a normal height and ride the ground effect uphill?
I
=
imagine that I might fly into the slope and touch down with more energy
tha=
n I would like and possibly do a ground loop or otherwise damage the
glider=
(and/or my body). The field may tilt a bit left to right.
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
The fact that the field is tilting up steeply in front of me is going
t=
o distort my perception and that is the other reason that I'm inclined to
f=
lair deliberately high. That gives me more time to see what is happening
a=
nd adjust.
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
Opinions and suggestions? I'm thinking about a particular field, but
I=
'd kinda like to know in general how to approach this type of field
because=
level fields are rare in my area.
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
=20
I will of course discuss this with knowledgable people at my club,
but
=
I'd like to think about it and get some ideas before I bring it up at the
a=
irport.
=20
=20
=20
I had a very rough landing in France in a security field that was
actuall=
y an altiport. An altiport is on a steep uphill field or runway. Mine
was=
a rough field, but the only know field to safely land withing 20
kilometer=
s. Such is the flying in the French Alps.
=20
=20
=20
Luckily, all I did was twist the landing gear and blow the tire, and
scra=
pe the gel coat off the bottom of my glider (as well as demoralize my
ego)
=
from my hard impact. I came to an abrupt stop 100 yards short of where I
t=
hought I would first touch down and roll onward. I had landing flaps
confi=
guration, which was an error for upslope landing. When I pulled hard to
fl=
air uphill, I had only drag and no lift from the wings. You need some
good=
L over D to flair uphill. To say the least, I had every difficulty
gettin=
g the glider back into the trailer without functioning wheel gear and not
g=
etting the landing gear door closed.
=20
=20
=20
If I had to do it again, I would go into the flair with at least 65
knots=
with only minimal positive flap setting and aim farther down the field
tha=
n my gut instinct would tell me. (Psychologically, your senses will tell
y=
ou otherwise.) Because of the illusion that you are driving into the
groun=
d with too much speed, actually you do not have enough airspeed, and you
ar=
e actually flying straight into the slope of the hill, you will touch
befor=
e you ever intended without enough airspeed to pull up abruptly. You will
a=
ctually have to flair "much higher" than your perceptions advises you to.
=20
=20
=20
If you fly in rolling hill territory or in tall mountain territory, you
m=
ust make study of this type of landing because you will eventually have
to
=
do it. Even Klaus Ohlmann, the world's best mountain gliding expert, has
de=
stroyed an Nimbus 2DM (and other gliders) landing at an altiport uphill.
Ta=
ke note of how difficult this can be for experts with tens of thousands
of
=
mountain gliding experience.=20
=20
=20
=20
Happy mountain soaring, it is extremely rewarding with the challenge
and
=
the joy of the views. Nothing better in this life experience.

Lleweni Parc (AKA Looney Park). Final at 75kts minimum over the river to
r=
ound out and land uphill and stop at the launch point. Much steeper than
t=
he 10/1 described by the OP.

Frank Whiteley

On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 1:38:49 PM UTC-4, Glen Douglas wrote:
Having done this in a Capstan, landed OK, but as it had no wheelbrake it

rolled backwards at 25 kph, down the hill and into the gatepost.

Ouch! especially after clearing the same fence on final.

What does one do with a bicycle style handbrake that requires constant squeezing? Maybe wrap a bungee around the squeeze handle before exiting the cockpit?

How well do ground loops work going backwards at low speed?

On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 3:09:00 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 1:38:49 PM UTC-4, Glen Douglas wrote:

Having done this in a Capstan, landed OK, but as it had no wheelbrake it



rolled backwards at 25 kph, down the hill and into the gatepost.



Ouch! especially after clearing the same fence on final.



What does one do with a bicycle style handbrake that requires constant squeezing? Maybe wrap a bungee around the squeeze handle before exiting the cockpit?



How well do ground loops work going backwards at low speed?

Another great story somewhere in the ACA Archives about a pilot who landed a 1-26 up against the side of a steep ridge. He was able to get out quickly and held the glider with the straps while he turned it sideways. Then gathered a bunch of large rocks to half-fill the cockpit and to chock the wheels. More to it involving people coming upon the "wrecked airplane" and finding only a cockpit full of rocks. Will have to dust that one off...

Groundloop whilst still moving forward, None of the controls work when you
are going backwards

We had no little choice in fields, were cought in the hills with a squall
cutting us off from our chosen field, leaving us with the alternative
option. The landing was fine until we started going backwards, and didn't
have time to get out and turn the glider by the wing

Glen

chiiAt 21:19 11 June 2013, Papa3 wrote:
On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 3:09:00 PM UTC-4, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Tuesday, June 11, 2013 1:38:49 PM UTC-4, Glen Douglas wrote:
=20
Having done this in a Capstan, landed OK, but as it had no wheelbrake
i=
t
=20
=20
=20
rolled backwards at 25 kph, down the hill and into the gatepost.=20
=20
=20
=20
Ouch! especially after clearing the same fence on final.
=20
=20
=20
What does one do with a bicycle style handbrake that requires constant
sq=
ueezing? Maybe wrap a bungee around the squeeze handle before exiting
the
=
cockpit?
=20
=20
=20
How well do ground loops work going backwards at low speed?

Another great story somewhere in the ACA Archives about a pilot who
landed
=
a 1-26 up against the side of a steep ridge. He was able to get out
quickl=
y and held the glider with the straps while he turned it sideways. Then
ga=
thered a bunch of large rocks to half-fill the cockpit and to chock the
whe=
els. More to it involving people coming upon the "wrecked airplane" and
f=
inding only a cockpit full of rocks. Will have to dust that one off...

Like this?
http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=p7-Qb...%3Dp7-QbI9Qzeg

I was taught that the theory was to approach at higher than usual
speed (you need extra energy to rotate enough to point upwards),
round out to fly parallel to the sloping ground just above it, and do
a normal held-off landing. Certainly not to fly it on. The theory was
that the held-off landing phased would be very short because of
energy loss flying upwards. It works.

First time I did it was when flying in Germany, caught out in hills,
and saw a gliding club whose site was on the side of a hill. I was
able to ridge soar for a bit and watch them. They all took off by
winch downhill and landed uphill. When I landed there, I did the
same. Only mistakes I made were too slow on approach (60-6t5
knots in a Ka6E) and to overestimate how little space I needed for
the uphill hold-off phase – I landed in their undershoot, which was a
bit rough. An even higher approach speed would have been better.

I have since landed uphill on one or two other occasions, always
with extra approach speed.

One last thing – if you have gone in too fast (unlikely, but there is
that fear), as always it is better to hit the far hedge slowly and on
the ground than to thump in hard at flying speed and damage your
back. And better to ground loop to avoid the hedge at the end than
to go straight into it – hedges have some stiff trunks in them, and
somebody I know had two badly broken legs doing that.

Chris N

On Thursday, June 13, 2013 2:51:23 AM UTC-4, Glidergeek wrote:
Like this?

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=p7-Qb...%3Dp7-QbI9Qzeg

That link works on smartphones.

This link will work for an old style laptop or desktop.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p7-QbI9Qzeg