Want to talk with Butterfly vario + PowerFlarm people

On Thursday, July 4, 2013 10:53:04 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I read the pilot manual that is on the website and found it to be a bit thin. It says that traffic is represented by triangles that point in the direction that the traffic is traveling in with a bar above or below the triangle to indicate the relative altitude. The audio (bitching Betty) is supposed to come on only if you are on a collision course. That is not working for you?

Thanks for pointing out the new manual (published July 2013 so a day or two ago?). It has CONSIDERABLY more detail than the original which was very light weight. Including what the line next to the triangle on the traffic display indicates. Yes, I am seeing the trangles and lines, at least for ADS-B traffic. I assume I will see glider traffic that way as well. But that and the audio warning is all you get - no FlarmNet info, no climb/descent info.. I don't think it changes to that screen automatically in the event of a collision warning.

In another recent post, Marc says that Butterfly is not intending to implement all of that function, as they do not want to replace the need for a dedicated Flarm display. I hope they change their mind on this: I can see no drawbacks at all of using the vario display for this function. It is beautifully brilliant, auto brightening/dimming, already connected to the Flarm, presumable placed in a very viewable area of the panel, already connected to a large speaker. What it should do IMO is implement the functionality of the Flarm display, and automatically switch to that page when a collision alert occurs. The vario bar would still be shown on the left, if centering the circle was deemed more important than avoiding a collision!

The installation is more involved than a traditional vario like the CAI302 I had before. However there is nothing magic about it. The main complication is mounting the ISU, which requires alignment with the airframe and also distance isolation from magnetic disturbances including power wires. I found room for it under the glare shield of my ASH26, but did spend some time cleaning up the power wiring. Power and grounds for everything should be run close together (twisted together insures this) to minimize the stray magnetic fields. That is good practice regardless. If you have to mount the ISU elsewhere, its going to be some work - a large cable and three pneumatic tubes would have to be run.

On Friday, July 5, 2013 12:00:14 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Thursday, July 4, 2013 10:53:04 PM UTC-7, wrote:

I read the pilot manual that is on the website and found it to be a bit thin. It says that traffic is represented by triangles that point in the direction that the traffic is traveling in with a bar above or below the triangle to indicate the relative altitude. The audio (bitching Betty) is supposed to come on only if you are on a collision course. That is not working for you?



Thanks for pointing out the new manual (published July 2013 so a day or two ago?). It has CONSIDERABLY more detail than the original which was very light weight. Including what the line next to the triangle on the traffic display indicates. Yes, I am seeing the trangles and lines, at least for ADS-B traffic. I assume I will see glider traffic that way as well. But that and the audio warning is all you get - no FlarmNet info, no climb/descent info. I don't think it changes to that screen automatically in the event of a collision warning.



In another recent post, Marc says that Butterfly is not intending to implement all of that function, as they do not want to replace the need for a dedicated Flarm display. I hope they change their mind on this: I can see no drawbacks at all of using the vario display for this function. It is beautifully brilliant, auto brightening/dimming, already connected to the Flarm, presumable placed in a very viewable area of the panel, already connected to a large speaker. What it should do IMO is implement the functionality of the Flarm display, and automatically switch to that page when a collision alert occurs. The vario bar would still be shown on the left, if centering the circle was deemed more important than avoiding a collision!



The installation is more involved than a traditional vario like the CAI302 I had before. However there is nothing magic about it. The main complication is mounting the ISU, which requires alignment with the airframe and also distance isolation from magnetic disturbances including power wires. I found room for it under the glare shield of my ASH26, but did spend some time cleaning up the power wiring. Power and grounds for everything should be run close together (twisted together insures this) to minimize the stray magnetic fields. That is good practice regardless. If you have to mount the ISU elsewhere, its going to be some work - a large cable and three pneumatic tubes would have to be run.

I also hope that Butterfly will implement the FLARM display functionality that is already in the Butterfly displays (or LX Flarmview). I sold my 57 mm Butterfly display thinking that when I got my Butterfly Vario it would have the equivalent functionality. In today's crowded panels, it doesn't make sense to be duplicating functionality. If Butterfly think that incorporating a FLARM display in the vario is a good idea, why don't they do it properly? Adding another FLARM display also adds the problem of connecting two devices to the PowerFLARM Core. It is probably possible--BUT WHY HAVE TO DO IT??

Regarding installation, I concur with all of the above comments. I mounted the ISU under the glare shield of my Ventus 2cxt but I may have to move it since I am seeing occasional strange wind indications that MAY be a function of unwanted magnetic fields. If I have to move it, that will be a major hassle.

I am still experimenting with time constants, etc. (there are many optional settings and it is not very clear--from the manual--what effects will be produced when these are changed).

The basic vario functions work fairly well (comparing to my V5); the FLARM display needs a lot of improvement; the navigation functions are awkward and rudimentary at present; the AHI is very good. I am sure that Butterfly will improve all of the glitches eventually, but it is disappointing that the pace of improvement is so slow. I got my BV last August and after installing the latest firmware there are still menu items in German in some screens (and even in the latest version of the manual). I would have thought that these simple things would have been corrected by now.

When the kinks are worked out I expect that the BV will be great. The hardware is beautifully built, the screen is outstanding, the organization of screen display elements is very good, the ability to customize is extensive.

In my opinion, Butterfly should immediately implement a decent FLARM display and provide much more detail and advice in the manual(s) regarding installation and setup. Procedures for testing the adequacy of the installation are badly needed. Advice on how best to to shield electrically induced magnetic fields (like twisting power and ground wires) would be helpful. We are not all engineers.

On Saturday, July 6, 2013 8:46:17 AM UTC-7, wrote:
On Friday, July 5, 2013 12:00:14 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:

On Thursday, July 4, 2013 10:53:04 PM UTC-7, wrote:



I read the pilot manual that is on the website and found it to be a bit thin. It says that traffic is represented by triangles that point in the direction that the traffic is traveling in with a bar above or below the triangle to indicate the relative altitude. The audio (bitching Betty) is supposed to come on only if you are on a collision course. That is not working for you?







Thanks for pointing out the new manual (published July 2013 so a day or two ago?). It has CONSIDERABLY more detail than the original which was very light weight. Including what the line next to the triangle on the traffic display indicates. Yes, I am seeing the trangles and lines, at least for ADS-B traffic. I assume I will see glider traffic that way as well. But that and the audio warning is all you get - no FlarmNet info, no climb/descent info. I don't think it changes to that screen automatically in the event of a collision warning.







In another recent post, Marc says that Butterfly is not intending to implement all of that function, as they do not want to replace the need for a dedicated Flarm display. I hope they change their mind on this: I can see no drawbacks at all of using the vario display for this function. It is beautifully brilliant, auto brightening/dimming, already connected to the Flarm, presumable placed in a very viewable area of the panel, already connected to a large speaker. What it should do IMO is implement the functionality of the Flarm display, and automatically switch to that page when a collision alert occurs. The vario bar would still be shown on the left, if centering the circle was deemed more important than avoiding a collision!







The installation is more involved than a traditional vario like the CAI302 I had before. However there is nothing magic about it. The main complication is mounting the ISU, which requires alignment with the airframe and also distance isolation from magnetic disturbances including power wires. I found room for it under the glare shield of my ASH26, but did spend some time cleaning up the power wiring. Power and grounds for everything should be run close together (twisted together insures this) to minimize the stray magnetic fields. That is good practice regardless. If you have to mount the ISU elsewhere, its going to be some work - a large cable and three pneumatic tubes would have to be run.



I also hope that Butterfly will implement the FLARM display functionality that is already in the Butterfly displays (or LX Flarmview). I sold my 57 mm Butterfly display thinking that when I got my Butterfly Vario it would have the equivalent functionality. In today's crowded panels, it doesn't make sense to be duplicating functionality. If Butterfly think that incorporating a FLARM display in the vario is a good idea, why don't they do it properly? Adding another FLARM display also adds the problem of connecting two devices to the PowerFLARM Core. It is probably possible--BUT WHY HAVE TO DO IT??



Regarding installation, I concur with all of the above comments. I mounted the ISU under the glare shield of my Ventus 2cxt but I may have to move it since I am seeing occasional strange wind indications that MAY be a function of unwanted magnetic fields. If I have to move it, that will be a major hassle.



I am still experimenting with time constants, etc. (there are many optional settings and it is not very clear--from the manual--what effects will be produced when these are changed).



The basic vario functions work fairly well (comparing to my V5); the FLARM display needs a lot of improvement; the navigation functions are awkward and rudimentary at present; the AHI is very good. I am sure that Butterfly will improve all of the glitches eventually, but it is disappointing that the pace of improvement is so slow. I got my BV last August and after installing the latest firmware there are still menu items in German in some screens (and even in the latest version of the manual). I would have thought that these simple things would have been corrected by now.



When the kinks are worked out I expect that the BV will be great. The hardware is beautifully built, the screen is outstanding, the organization of screen display elements is very good, the ability to customize is extensive..



In my opinion, Butterfly should immediately implement a decent FLARM display and provide much more detail and advice in the manual(s) regarding installation and setup. Procedures for testing the adequacy of the installation are badly needed. Advice on how best to to shield electrically induced magnetic fields (like twisting power and ground wires) would be helpful. We are not all engineers.

I agree it makes little sense to have a Flarm display and not make it work properly. While the Vario seems incomplete, it is moving the right direction in my opinion, compared to the competition.

I have experimented a bit with magnetic fields and power wires around the ISU. It seems more sensitive to iron and magnets than the typical currents seen in a glider panel. A strongish rare earth magnet 3 feet away will begin to affect it. The basic EMI rules on power lines is to run power and ground servicing each load as close together as possible (twisting them together assures this). The theory is that the field created by the current going out in the power lead is exactly cancelled by the current returning on the ground - true in a perfect world. Of course this is not possible at the distribution points or circuit breakers, but the less area enclosed by the current loop the better. I note that this was not paid particular attention in my glider, either by the Schleicher factory or the people who built up the panel. There was no need at the time.

You may be able to test for an offending instrument by shutting it off to see if there is a heading difference indicated on the vario. Another method is to bring a hand compass near the ISU and try switching various things on and off watching for deflection in the needle. Try this on both east/west and north/south headings. Key the mike on the radio and see what happens - this usually makes the current jump from a few hundred milliamps to a couple of amps and the magnetic field is proportional to current. I assume they can compensate out steady magnetic fields to some extent, it is the varying ones that cause more trouble. I have learned these things from flux gate interference on boat autopilots.

There is very little you can do to shield magnetic fields - you have to cancel them or move them.

I stil haven't flown with my Butterfly, redoing the panel has consumed a LOT of time. So my advice above is from a background in engineering, and playing with the ISU on the bench and in my shop.

On Saturday, July 6, 2013 6:02:14 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:
On Saturday, July 6, 2013 8:46:17 AM UTC-7, wrote:

On Friday, July 5, 2013 12:00:14 PM UTC-4, jfitch wrote:



On Thursday, July 4, 2013 10:53:04 PM UTC-7, wrote:







I read the pilot manual that is on the website and found it to be a bit thin. It says that traffic is represented by triangles that point in the direction that the traffic is traveling in with a bar above or below the triangle to indicate the relative altitude. The audio (bitching Betty) is supposed to come on only if you are on a collision course. That is not working for you?















Thanks for pointing out the new manual (published July 2013 so a day or two ago?). It has CONSIDERABLY more detail than the original which was very light weight. Including what the line next to the triangle on the traffic display indicates. Yes, I am seeing the trangles and lines, at least for ADS-B traffic. I assume I will see glider traffic that way as well. But that and the audio warning is all you get - no FlarmNet info, no climb/descent info. I don't think it changes to that screen automatically in the event of a collision warning.















In another recent post, Marc says that Butterfly is not intending to implement all of that function, as they do not want to replace the need for a dedicated Flarm display. I hope they change their mind on this: I can see no drawbacks at all of using the vario display for this function. It is beautifully brilliant, auto brightening/dimming, already connected to the Flarm, presumable placed in a very viewable area of the panel, already connected to a large speaker. What it should do IMO is implement the functionality of the Flarm display, and automatically switch to that page when a collision alert occurs. The vario bar would still be shown on the left, if centering the circle was deemed more important than avoiding a collision!















The installation is more involved than a traditional vario like the CAI302 I had before. However there is nothing magic about it. The main complication is mounting the ISU, which requires alignment with the airframe and also distance isolation from magnetic disturbances including power wires. I found room for it under the glare shield of my ASH26, but did spend some time cleaning up the power wiring. Power and grounds for everything should be run close together (twisted together insures this) to minimize the stray magnetic fields. That is good practice regardless. If you have to mount the ISU elsewhere, its going to be some work - a large cable and three pneumatic tubes would have to be run.







I also hope that Butterfly will implement the FLARM display functionality that is already in the Butterfly displays (or LX Flarmview). I sold my 57 mm Butterfly display thinking that when I got my Butterfly Vario it would have the equivalent functionality. In today's crowded panels, it doesn't make sense to be duplicating functionality. If Butterfly think that incorporating a FLARM display in the vario is a good idea, why don't they do it properly? Adding another FLARM display also adds the problem of connecting two devices to the PowerFLARM Core. It is probably possible--BUT WHY HAVE TO DO IT??







Regarding installation, I concur with all of the above comments. I mounted the ISU under the glare shield of my Ventus 2cxt but I may have to move it since I am seeing occasional strange wind indications that MAY be a function of unwanted magnetic fields. If I have to move it, that will be a major hassle.







I am still experimenting with time constants, etc. (there are many optional settings and it is not very clear--from the manual--what effects will be produced when these are changed).







The basic vario functions work fairly well (comparing to my V5); the FLARM display needs a lot of improvement; the navigation functions are awkward and rudimentary at present; the AHI is very good. I am sure that Butterfly will improve all of the glitches eventually, but it is disappointing that the pace of improvement is so slow. I got my BV last August and after installing the latest firmware there are still menu items in German in some screens (and even in the latest version of the manual). I would have thought that these simple things would have been corrected by now.







When the kinks are worked out I expect that the BV will be great. The hardware is beautifully built, the screen is outstanding, the organization of screen display elements is very good, the ability to customize is extensive.







In my opinion, Butterfly should immediately implement a decent FLARM display and provide much more detail and advice in the manual(s) regarding installation and setup. Procedures for testing the adequacy of the installation are badly needed. Advice on how best to to shield electrically induced magnetic fields (like twisting power and ground wires) would be helpful. We are not all engineers.



I agree it makes little sense to have a Flarm display and not make it work properly. While the Vario seems incomplete, it is moving the right direction in my opinion, compared to the competition.



I have experimented a bit with magnetic fields and power wires around the ISU. It seems more sensitive to iron and magnets than the typical currents seen in a glider panel. A strongish rare earth magnet 3 feet away will begin to affect it. The basic EMI rules on power lines is to run power and ground servicing each load as close together as possible (twisting them together assures this). The theory is that the field created by the current going out in the power lead is exactly cancelled by the current returning on the ground - true in a perfect world. Of course this is not possible at the distribution points or circuit breakers, but the less area enclosed by the current loop the better. I note that this was not paid particular attention in my glider, either by the Schleicher factory or the people who built up the panel. There was no need at the time.



You may be able to test for an offending instrument by shutting it off to see if there is a heading difference indicated on the vario. Another method is to bring a hand compass near the ISU and try switching various things on and off watching for deflection in the needle. Try this on both east/west and north/south headings. Key the mike on the radio and see what happens - this usually makes the current jump from a few hundred milliamps to a couple of amps and the magnetic field is proportional to current. I assume they can compensate out steady magnetic fields to some extent, it is the varying ones that cause more trouble. I have learned these things from flux gate interference on boat autopilots.



There is very little you can do to shield magnetic fields - you have to cancel them or move them.



I stil haven't flown with my Butterfly, redoing the panel has consumed a LOT of time. So my advice above is from a background in engineering, and playing with the ISU on the bench and in my shop.

Thanks for the explanations. I will try some of these good suggestions tomorrow.

We are actually planning to implement further features into the FLARM screen in one of the next versions, however we will be very careful with this.

The problem for us is that Butterfly Vario is a variometer. It always has been and still is our philosophy to have separate devices for separate tasks.. The main reason Butterfly Vario has a FLARM Interface is the audio warning capability it has and to have the ability to mix voice-warning-audio with vario-audio.

For visual traffic warnings a dedicated display located on top of the panel makes dramatically more sense than a vario that switches screens and represents additional distracting information together with a warning.

A similar thing is navigation. We know that it makes sense to have redundant navigation systems (not only for people flying desert regions or in Africa), therefore we implemented a rudimentary but easy to use navigation page. We will certainly refine this function but we will not enhance the navigation features of our variometer to an extend where it replaces a glide computer.

Makes sense? We are of course open for discussions on this.

Best regards
Marc

Thank you, Marc, for your explanation.

Speaking for myself, my panel is very small (LS-8). I am looking for maximum efficiency in use of space and maximum utility of each instrument. I would respectfully point out that the Flarm display having both a voice feature and switching screens will absolutely bring the attention of the pilot on the risk of collision. Also, the pilot's eyes, when inside the cockpit, will be on the vario (whether in climb or cruise) the majority of the time so the Flarm display will be where the pilot's eyes are most concentrated. Since the vario and speed to fly remain present as a side bar to the Flarm display it makes for very efficient use of the space and again, keeps the pilot's eyes in a more limited area of the cockpit.

As for your hope that the dedicated Flarm display would be at the top of the glareshield...I see many installations where the Flarm display is on the side rail of the canopy or on a RAM arm on the side of the panel. Since varios are more typically installed near the top of the panel so that they are as close as possible to our line of sight for flying, the screen is much closer to your ideal than many of the current Flarm displays.

Thank you for your attention to all the comments made on this forum.

Guy Acheson "DDS"

On Monday, July 8, 2013 12:38:19 AM UTC-7, Marc - Butterfly Avionics wrote:
We are actually planning to implement further features into the FLARM screen in one of the next versions, however we will be very careful with this.



The problem for us is that Butterfly Vario is a variometer. It always has been and still is our philosophy to have separate devices for separate tasks. The main reason Butterfly Vario has a FLARM Interface is the audio warning capability it has and to have the ability to mix voice-warning-audio with vario-audio.



For visual traffic warnings a dedicated display located on top of the panel makes dramatically more sense than a vario that switches screens and represents additional distracting information together with a warning.



A similar thing is navigation. We know that it makes sense to have redundant navigation systems (not only for people flying desert regions or in Africa), therefore we implemented a rudimentary but easy to use navigation page. We will certainly refine this function but we will not enhance the navigation features of our variometer to an extend where it replaces a glide computer.



Makes sense? We are of course open for discussions on this.



Best regards

Marc

I'm fine with the navigation functions. A PDA and a choice of software provide all of the functions I need. I would like to see a safety altitude feature, so that the glide slope indicated on the Vario would match every other instrument as this leads to some confusion.

However I would like to see Flarm functions expanded. The idea that separate tasks require separate instruments assumes unlimited panel space. I do not have room for a dedicated traffic display, so the choice for me is Flarm displayed on the vario or no Flarm displayed at all. I agree heartily with what DDS says above. I cannot see it as a distraction if, along with the audio warning, I get a Flarm screen with the important information in the instrument I look at most, and the one that is talking to me. This could be optional, turned off for those who have a dedicated traffic display (and for whom it might be a distraction). The one screen that is essential is the warning screen showing direction and altitude. I note that the V7 does exactly this. Other screens tracking traffic for situational awareness or leeching can be (and are better) displayed on the navigational PDA display.

Can you tell me, how is a Flarm warning displayed on iGlide?