Did the Germans have the Norden bombsight?

Does anybody know where these pickle barrels came from? Were they Lend
Lease?

No, they were exclusively used by the USAAF.

"The target for the Eighth on 4 April was the Renault plant near Paris. Three
diversions drew the German defenders away and permitted the lead 305th Bomb
Group to destroy the complex; 498 out of 500 bombs fell within the target
area."

--"JG 26; Top Guns of the Luftwaffe" p. 156 by Donald L. Caldwell

Walt

"The target for the Eighth on 4 April was the Renault plant near Paris. Three
diversions drew the German defenders away and permitted the lead 305th Bomb
Group to destroy the complex; 498 out of 500 bombs fell within the target
area."

The target area was "France," right?

vince norris

"The target for the Eighth on 4 April was the Renault plant near Paris.
Three
diversions drew the German defenders away and permitted the lead 305th Bomb
Group to destroy the complex; 498 out of 500 bombs fell within the target
area."

The target area was "France," right?

No.

"The first mission of April brought more evidence of the value of the
bombardment campaign when Fortresses left the Renault works at Paris a smoking
ruin; It took six months to resume full production, denying the enemy 3,075
lorries...the target was picked out in spite of industrial haze that shrouded
much of the city...bombs of the 305th Fortresses struck at least 19 factory
buildings..."

--"The Mighty Eighth" by Roger Freeman

Walt

"The first mission of April brought more evidence of the value of the
bombardment campaign when Fortresses left the Renault works at Paris a
smoking
ruin; It took six months to resume full production, denying the enemy 3,075
lorries...the target was picked out in spite of industrial haze that
shrouded
much of the city...bombs of the 305th Fortresses struck at least 19 factory
buildings..."

As luck would have it, I have a report on the destruction of the French
automobile industry dated 1 Nov. 1944 that reviews the effects of bombing
attacks. It states that the industry was essentially destroyed by May of that
year.
"The works completely or partially destroyed by American bombing comprise
Goodrich, Dunlop and Michelin tire factories, Renault, Ford, Berliet, SKF and
SRO ball bearing works, Standard Oil Co.'s refineries, Castrol oil works,
Potez, Farman, Salmson, Caudron and Gnome & Rhone aircraft factories. Peugeot
was bombed by the English and the foundry wiped out. Citroen was attacked by
the Germans in June, 1940, the fires then started destroying documents but
leaving the main works intact."
Long discussion of the Comite' de l'Organization de l'Automobile, an
organization set up by the Germans to manage French production. Long
discussion of Francois Lehideux, Renault exec who became head of the COA and
was also Minister of Industrial Production, arrested after liberation as a
traitor, along with executives of a number of other auto and tire companies.
Long discussion of extensive and determined German/French quisling efforts to
maximize production.
"Despite these efforts, as a result of US bombing, production declined until by
the spring of 1944 the industrial life of France had practically ceased to
exist.,,,Citroen shut down on May 12, Renault one day later. The French Fiat
company shut down the same day. Peugeot switched to night production because
of electricty shortages, but the workers went on strike to protest night
work.... As a general rule there was no production after the first week of May,
1944...
"Citroen hands were sent to clear up the wreckage of the railway line at
Juvisy, bombed by the RAF. It was well known that the men did little work and
a lot of pillaging....
"There were two attacks on the Goodrich factory at Colombes near Paris. In the
second attack, the place was wiped out, without the loss of life. The Gnome
and Rhone plant close by was attacked at the same time but here more than 600
people were killed owing to lack of shelters and an order that hands should
scatter to the fields. When the Dunlop plant at Montlucon was brought down
only 4 people were killed....
The Renault facilities were considerably destroyed as the result of four
attacks that caused little loss of life..."
Vehicle production figures:
1941 = 56,743
1942 = 44,792
1943 = 20,960
1944 (first six months) =2,512
At the beginning of 1940 France had a total vehicle population of 2.6 million.
As of mid-1944 the population was 620,000.
This is a very long and detailed document, and quite interesting, with details
of Gestapo men assigned to plants, working hours 4 a.m. to 8 p.m. with a
breakfast of malt beverage, lunch of vegetable soup, dinner of vegetable soup,
the requisitioning of bicycles by "rule of Mauser," German officers driving
around in Packard and Buick cars...all sorts of interesting details of life in
occupied industrial France under air attack.
The author is anonymous but is describe as "an experience automotive specialist
who has spent the greater part of his life in France," and writes from
"personal observation and first-hand knowledge."




Chris Mark

"WalterM140" wrote in message
...
"The target for the Eighth on 4 April was the Renault plant near Paris.
Three
diversions drew the German defenders away and permitted the lead 305th
Bomb
Group to destroy the complex; 498 out of 500 bombs fell within the
target
area."

The target area was "France," right?

No.

"The first mission of April brought more evidence of the value of the
bombardment campaign when Fortresses left the Renault works at Paris a
smoking
ruin; It took six months to resume full production, denying the enemy
3,075
lorries...the target was picked out in spite of industrial haze that
shrouded
much of the city...bombs of the 305th Fortresses struck at least 19
factory
buildings..."

--"The Mighty Eighth" by Roger Freeman

Walt

From www.renault.com

Unlike other manufacturers who worked for the enemy by day and the
Resistance at night, the Renault management did not ask the Allies to bomb
their factories, as Peugeot did. So Louis Renault did not understand why
Billancourt was the prime target of RAF bombers in March 1942 and on several
subsequent occasions.

Fact is the factory was repeatedly attacked and the most damaging raid
of them was that by the RAF in March 1942 which destroyed 40% of the
factory

Keith

Fact is the factory was repeatedly attacked and the most damaging raid
of them was that by the RAF in March 1942 which destroyed 40% of the
factory

Details?

But the point is that 498 bombs out of 500 hitting the target is in fact
"pickle barrel" accuracy.

"Pickle barrel" accuracy was attainable and it was attained.

What is striking about all this is how hard some Brits will work to belittle
the honest achievements of others.

Walt

"WalterM140" wrote in message
...
Fact is the factory was repeatedly attacked and the most damaging raid
of them was that by the RAF in March 1942 which destroyed 40% of the
factory

Details?

But the point is that 498 bombs out of 500 hitting the target is in fact
"pickle barrel" accuracy.


The quotes was that 489 hit the target area, the definition of
the target area has not been defined

"Pickle barrel" accuracy was attainable and it was attained.

What is striking about all this is how hard some Brits will work to
belittle
the honest achievements of others.


I have never and will never belittle the efforts of the US
airmen who fought and died in WW2. I make a point of
paying my respects at the US War Cemetery in Cambridge
at least once a year.

You however seem unwilling to make the same allowance
for the efforts of the Commonwealt forces. There are
two ex bomber bases within 5 miles of my house.

Bassingbourn which was used by the USAAF and
Gransden Lodge from which RCAF aircraft flew.

Both played their part in final victory and young men
of both air forces flew their missions knowing their
chances of survival were poor.

They deserve better than your bile.

Keith

Fact is the factory was repeatedly attacked and the most damaging raid
of them was that by the RAF in March 1942 which destroyed 40% of the
factory


Details?


I'll ask again. Details?

Walt

The quotes was that 489 hit the target area, the definition of
the target area has not been defined

I posted it, after all. The quote was clearly 498, not 489, as if that
mattered.

"Pickle barrel" accuracy was attainable and it was attained.

What is striking about all this is how hard some Brits will work to
belittle
the honest achievements of others.



I have never and will never belittle the efforts of the US
airmen who fought and died in WW2. I make a point of
paying my respects at the US War Cemetery in Cambridge
at least once a year.

I go down to the military cemetary in Chattanooga. There are mostly dead from
the Civil War, but there are a number of WWII dead there as well.

You however seem unwilling to make the same allowance
for the efforts of the Commonwealt forces. There are
two ex bomber bases within 5 miles of my house.

I grew up right outside the national battlefield at Chickamauga.

Bassingbourn which was used by the USAAF and
Gransden Lodge from which RCAF aircraft flew.

Yes, the 91st Bomb Group was stationed at Bassingbourn. More B-17's failed to
return to Bassingbourn than from any other station -- 420, IIRC.

Both played their part in final victory and young men
of both air forces flew their missions knowing their
chances of survival were poor.

But now the "pickle barrel" accuracy they set for a goal is belittled and made
fun of by the people they helped to save.


They deserve better than your bile.


The history of Bomber Command has benefited by a smoke screen of propaganda and
wishful thinking for 60 years.

I think that is why some seem so determined to belittle the honest
accomplishments of others.

Walt