Contest Class Development for Future Success - The Case fordeveloping the Handicapped Classes

On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 2:10:24 PM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:
SNIPModern standard will be part of club. SNIP
John:

Why, exactly, WILL (my emphasis) Modern Standard be part of Club Class?

Your statement seems to make this a non-negotiable point.

If the point if making handicapped racing better racing by reducing the spread of handicaps, why must Club get stuck with the biggest, and arguably semi-unworkable, handicap range, while the folding into 15m of Modern Standard and Last Generation 15m is not on the table.

The handicap range between current 15m gliders and Modern Standard (plus the last generation of 15m) is surely much more tight than the handicap range between modern standard (and last generation 15m) and the Libelle - let alone the upper limit of, say, a 1-26, as written into the US Club Class definition today

If we go to handicapped racing as the main experience in sailplane racing, we need to make it work so that everyone has or feels like they are getting the best racing experience possible. This si done by narrowing, not broadening the handicap ranges.

Tim EY

On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 8:56:21 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 2:10:24 PM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:

SNIPModern standard will be part of club. SNIP

John:



Why, exactly, WILL (my emphasis) Modern Standard be part of Club Class?


Your statement seems to make this a non-negotiable point.

If the point if making handicapped racing better racing by reducing the spread of handicaps, why must Club get stuck with the biggest, and arguably semi-unworkable, handicap range, while the folding into 15m of Modern Standard and Last Generation 15m is not on the table.

The handicap range between current 15m gliders and Modern Standard (plus the last generation of 15m) is surely much more tight than the handicap range between modern standard (and last generation 15m) and the Libelle - let alone the upper limit of, say, a 1-26, as written into the US Club Class definition today

If we go to handicapped racing as the main experience in sailplane racing, we need to make it work so that everyone has or feels like they are getting the best racing experience possible. This si done by narrowing, not broadening the handicap ranges.

Tim EY

I was looking and the handicaps by glider model and have started looking at the FAA registration database to see where the fleet size is.

First cut, it seems like a Club Class focused on 1.02 (Std Libelle) to 0.91 (the last production generation of standard) would capture a lot of the very large and popular racing capable fleet. I know that higher handicap gliders like older Schreders are included but honestly I don't see those showing up in numbers. It seems like there is little to gain from having very large handicaps in club class from a size of fleet/participation perspective so that may be the far more productive place to reduce the range of handicaps. It turns out that including modern standard class - extending to Discus 2 versus stopping at Discus a or ASW-24 expands the handicap range by only 0.01, whereas including a bunch of older gliders below the standard Libelle expands it by 0.05 or more. I need to get the numbers, but I'm guessing that there are a lot more active glider pilots wanting to race at the Modern Standard side of the equation than those with Sisus and HP-11s and the handicap range required is 1/5 as wide - or less. I expect you get many more capable pilots on the higher performance end, but it doesn't appear to be at all an issue of the handicap expansion - at least based on the data.

I think the idea of creating an OLC format for very low performance gliders may indeed make a much more accessible entry at the low end rather than trying to include them in Club Class were you could get a lot more vibrant competitive participation by moving 1% up in performance to give an outlet for Modern Standard gliders - and get a solution for the east/west travel problem. This presumes that you are interested in increasing competitiveness of Club rather than restricting it for a VERY small increment in handicap range.

As to the Std/15M range - it looks like 0.92 to 0.87 gets you most of the latest generation Std and 15M plus some older 15M. That seems like a good critical mass of installed base of gliders.

I'd be very interested to see what a lift strength and wind handicap adjustment would look like for FAI classes, Peter. I'd say let's take a look.

9B

Roger that - already starting to work on it.

Please remember that LS8 and D2 ARE on the US club class list already - per my response to Tim. (worse performance than an ASW20a)

2T

On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 9:24:54 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 8:56:21 PM UTC-7, wrote:

On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 2:10:24 PM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:



SNIPModern standard will be part of club. SNIP



John:







Why, exactly, WILL (my emphasis) Modern Standard be part of Club Class?





Your statement seems to make this a non-negotiable point.



If the point if making handicapped racing better racing by reducing the spread of handicaps, why must Club get stuck with the biggest, and arguably semi-unworkable, handicap range, while the folding into 15m of Modern Standard and Last Generation 15m is not on the table.



The handicap range between current 15m gliders and Modern Standard (plus the last generation of 15m) is surely much more tight than the handicap range between modern standard (and last generation 15m) and the Libelle - let alone the upper limit of, say, a 1-26, as written into the US Club Class definition today



If we go to handicapped racing as the main experience in sailplane racing, we need to make it work so that everyone has or feels like they are getting the best racing experience possible. This si done by narrowing, not broadening the handicap ranges.



Tim EY



I was looking and the handicaps by glider model and have started looking at the FAA registration database to see where the fleet size is.



First cut, it seems like a Club Class focused on 1.02 (Std Libelle) to 0.91 (the last production generation of standard) would capture a lot of the very large and popular racing capable fleet. I know that higher handicap gliders like older Schreders are included but honestly I don't see those showing up in numbers. It seems like there is little to gain from having very large handicaps in club class from a size of fleet/participation perspective so that may be the far more productive place to reduce the range of handicaps. It turns out that including modern standard class - extending to Discus 2 versus stopping at Discus a or ASW-24 expands the handicap range by only 0.01, whereas including a bunch of older gliders below the standard Libelle expands it by 0.05 or more. I need to get the numbers, but I'm guessing that there are a lot more active glider pilots wanting to race at the Modern Standard side of the equation than those with Sisus and HP-11s and the handicap range required is 1/5 as wide - or less. I expect you get many more capable pilots on the higher performance end, but it doesn't appear to be at all an issue of the handicap expansion - at least based on the data.



I think the idea of creating an OLC format for very low performance gliders may indeed make a much more accessible entry at the low end rather than trying to include them in Club Class were you could get a lot more vibrant competitive participation by moving 1% up in performance to give an outlet for Modern Standard gliders - and get a solution for the east/west travel problem. This presumes that you are interested in increasing competitiveness of Club rather than restricting it for a VERY small increment in handicap range.



As to the Std/15M range - it looks like 0.92 to 0.87 gets you most of the latest generation Std and 15M plus some older 15M. That seems like a good critical mass of installed base of gliders.



I'd be very interested to see what a lift strength and wind handicap adjustment would look like for FAI classes, Peter. I'd say let's take a look.



9B

On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 9:34:47 PM UTC-7, wrote:
Roger that - already starting to work on it.

Please remember that LS8 and D2 ARE on the US club class list already - per my response to Tim. (worse performance than an ASW20a)

Yup - I have a bunch of US glider fleet size data that i could map to the handicap range i you need it. It seems that you get more fleet expansion per percent of handicap range on the Club side (compared to IGC Club) than on the 15m side, but both seem feasible IF you can crack the ballast issue for 15m.

9B

I was looking and the handicaps by glider model and have started looking at the FAA registration database to see where the fleet size is.


Numbers on gliders here

http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john...ticipation.pdf

It's amazing how many raceable gliders there are, that don't race. Our problem is not lack of gliders, it's lack of pilots who want to race them

John Cochrane

On Thursday, July 17, 2014 11:22:13 AM UTC-4, John Cochrane wrote:


I was looking and the handicaps by glider model and have started looking at the FAA registration database to see where the fleet size is.





Numbers on gliders here



http://faculty.chicagobooth.edu/john...ticipation.pdf



It's amazing how many raceable gliders there are, that don't race. Our problem is not lack of gliders, it's lack of pilots who want to race them



John Cochrane

Many of the "modern" Std class ships have been bought from racers, who originally imported them for competition, by recreational pilots who wanted good performance and low age (good gelcoat). Many of these(most?), likely won't come play in contests, or maybe an occasional convenient regional.
My observation supports John's in this respect.
UH

Tim

LS8 and D2 and ASW28 are already withing the handicap range of US club and ON the club class list.(they are slightly *worse* (dry) than an ASW20 which IS on the IGC list) and you arent trying to throw ASW20s out are you? ASW24's and D1's are also OK and also only just below the ASW20 handicap.

Stick with the handicap range of the IGC list and LS8/D2 are still within the range - V1 and LS6 are a different matter - but the horse has already bolted years go on that one (before my time)

Club gets stuck with the biggest range of handicaps because it must *by definition* include the widest range of gliders.

2T

On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 8:56:21 PM UTC-7, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 2:10:24 PM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:

SNIPModern standard will be part of club. SNIP

John:



Why, exactly, WILL (my emphasis) Modern Standard be part of Club Class?



Your statement seems to make this a non-negotiable point.



If the point if making handicapped racing better racing by reducing the spread of handicaps, why must Club get stuck with the biggest, and arguably semi-unworkable, handicap range, while the folding into 15m of Modern Standard and Last Generation 15m is not on the table.



The handicap range between current 15m gliders and Modern Standard (plus the last generation of 15m) is surely much more tight than the handicap range between modern standard (and last generation 15m) and the Libelle - let alone the upper limit of, say, a 1-26, as written into the US Club Class definition today



If we go to handicapped racing as the main experience in sailplane racing, we need to make it work so that everyone has or feels like they are getting the best racing experience possible. This si done by narrowing, not broadening the handicap ranges.



Tim EY

On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 11:56:21 PM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 2:10:24 PM UTC-5, John Cochrane wrote:

SNIPModern standard will be part of club. SNIP

John:



Why, exactly, WILL (my emphasis) Modern Standard be part of Club Class?



Your statement seems to make this a non-negotiable point.



If the point if making handicapped racing better racing by reducing the spread of handicaps, why must Club get stuck with the biggest, and arguably semi-unworkable, handicap range, while the folding into 15m of Modern Standard and Last Generation 15m is not on the table.



The handicap range between current 15m gliders and Modern Standard (plus the last generation of 15m) is surely much more tight than the handicap range between modern standard (and last generation 15m) and the Libelle - let alone the upper limit of, say, a 1-26, as written into the US Club Class definition today



If we go to handicapped racing as the main experience in sailplane racing, we need to make it work so that everyone has or feels like they are getting the best racing experience possible. This si done by narrowing, not broadening the handicap ranges.



Tim EY

As one of the ones that formed the current Club progression, I'll jump in here.
The "plan" as I envisioned, was to get Club off the ground as class and demonstrate that it is a viable stand alone class so that organizers would feel safe in bidding to run the event and Club pilots would know that their class has a path to becoming a fully recognized nationals class.
The "plan" was to co locate with Sports until stand alone potential is demonstrated, then break it away for Sports to get rid of the "dividing of the field" effect when both are at the same site.
Once this is accomplished, the low end of the performance range can move to the same as IGC because the low performance gliders can go to Sports and no one is sent home.
After 2 fairly good years of entries, I would say it is time. The key is to get a site, western strongly preferred so as not to affect CCSC in '2015, and finish this progression.
The handicap range was slightly widened to add the V1 and LS-6 simply because they are not significantly different than the ASW-20 already included. This was done purely to try to increase potential entries. Obviously this can evolve back based upon participation experience.
Before we start mucking with the "plan", we should finish executing it.
Let's get a site on board for '15 and finish the class introduction.
UH
Former RC chair and Club owner/pilot

On Thursday, July 17, 2014 6:02:46 AM UTC-7, wrote:

Here's the current Club participants at 2014 Nationals along with handicaps and handicap difference to the median:

Glider Hcp Hcp vs median
LS-6 0.898 0.06
304CZ-17 0.902 0.05
Discus cs 0.915 0.04
ASW-20C-15 0.917 0.04
Discus 2b 0.925 0.03
Discus 2a 0.928 0.03
Discus a 0.937 0.02
DG-200-15 0.940 0.02
PIK-20D 0.952 0.00
Genesis II 0.956 0.00
304C 0.956 0.00
H-301 Libelle 0.979 (0.02)
Std Cirrus 1.001 (0.05)
ASW-15B 1.003 (0.05)
Std Libelle 1.008 (0.05)
Std Libelle 1.010 (0.05)
Silent 2a 1.040 (0.08)
Apis 13 1.148 (0.19)

The big outliers in handicap that drive the range up are at the low performance end. We can quibble about whether an LS-6 is too high performance at 2% more than a Discus cs, but the D-2s are nicely between the Discus CS and the Discus a with 1% difference in handicap. It seems to me like a bit of a red herring to argue for excluding D-2, LS-8 and ASW-28 - they don't expand the handicap range hardly at all (.01 vs a Discus). They are closer to the median handicap of the gliders flying than the Libelle, ASW-15 or Standard Cirrus. The much bigger issue is the low performance end if handicap spread is the concern.

Just a little data.

9B

Why, exactly, WILL (my emphasis) Modern Standard be part of Club Class?
...
If we go to handicapped racing as the main experience in sailplane racing, we need to make it work so that everyone has or feels like they are getting the best racing experience possible. This si done by narrowing, not broadening the handicap ranges.


"Will" is from my memory of last RC minutes, available on ssa.org if you want to check. Club will be everything on the US team club class list handicap range, running from ventus 1 down to about 1.10. Gliders below 1.10 will not be sent home, but will not get further handicap.

It seemed a little silly to let in gliders with 0.90 handicap (ventus 1, asw20) and exclude gliders with 0.915 handicap (D2,28, LS8) just because they are newer. Also, it is important to craft a place for standard class to go in view of its possible demise as a separate class.

This will all certainly be revisited over and over and over again. Nothing ever seems to be settled with rules.

The best racing experience combines narrower handicap ranges and larger number of pilots. In my opinion, and that of most pilots I've talked to, classes of 5 people at regionals and 8 at nationals -- the bare minimum -- with narrower handicap ranges are less fun, and less quality race, than classes of 25 people with broader handicap ranges.

We all want 50 gliders in pure FAI classes or one design. We have to write rules for the world we have not the one we'd dream of having. But the tradeoff between handicap range and size of fleet will be one I'm sure we will revisit over and over again.

The 15 meter + standard FAI class with handicaps down to 0.94 sounds to me like a great solution for many racers. These gliders cost half what a new 18 meter glider costs, there are hundreds, maybe a thousand or more good gliders in the country, so it's basically one design racing for the foreseeable future.

John Cochrane