Open Discussion; Creating XC pilots

All,

I just want to make it clear that I'm not the only reason the club has had such success, I'm not that vain :-)! A great pilot, Dick Vangrunsven, was a presenter several years ago at the convention. He talked about the XC flights in the area and was one of the founding members of the SIG I mentioned before.

As noted, the club leadership and the more extended exposure of the 5-pack has been a great part.

The club culture noted above is certainly a big factor. The change in club rules, allowing XC flights, was one of the biggest boosts to the idea that anyone could do XC from our little airport.

I think Condor is a great tool. During the winter months I hold XC training ground school and we do Condor flying. Last year we did our first Condor LAN party and everyone is asking when we're doing it again.

The club has a growing core of XC/OLC pilots and they made a commitment to each other to be of assistance in the event of a land-out and to be willing to do a little lead-follow flying. The first helps to overcome some of the fear of the retrieve, someone experienced is coming to help. And the second is the encouragement, through time and example, to move a little further from the field.

I think we all agree that there's not just ONE thing that will get more pilots into XC but these ideas are all part of a toolbox that will help add pilots to the XC ranks.

MB

On Sun, 20 Jul 2014 07:35:38 -0700, son_of_flubber wrote:

A qualified yes. I'm working on coring thermals quickly and flying fast
on headings. The local terrain and lift/sink is asymmetrical. I can
play 'how far can I fly beyond that ridge line and still get home' going
E W or S. There is a similar decision point to the north caused by a
zone of dependable sink.

It's an interesting beautiful place to fly and I've never felt bored.
http://caltopo.com/map.html#ll=44.10...81698&z=13&b=t

Looks interesting (I peeked at your area on Google Earth) but it is
significantly different from the flay area I fly over. I have to say that
my main gains, while still restricted to local soaring, came from
mentally pre-declaring local mini-triangles and then flying round the
course they define. Yes, this means that you fly round each turnpoint (so
you can see it over the inside canopy edge as you fly round it) rather
than going (almost) to it. The gains, apart from learning that you don't
need to use every thermal you come to, are all concerned with developing
the judgement needed to get high enough on the last climb on a task leg
to get round the turnpoint and into the next climb without needing to dig
yourself out of a hole. Of course, you also need to know about digging
yourself out of holes because for sure you'll get it wrong and fall into
one from time to time. This skill tends to develop from experience salted
with sheer necessity.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

I think XC is deeply embedded in the club culture at London Gliding Club (UK) with most of the active instructors also being active XC pilots, and new pilots positively encouraged to move on towards XC via Silver after solo and bronze. I just checked and found that 57 members have posted XC flights on the BGA ladder so far this year (a UK specific online ladder used by most club members in preference to OLC). Undoubtedly there are a few more members than this who fly XC, and I would guess that about 25% of our 270 club members do so.

We run one or two 9 day XC courses a year, comprising lectures, 2 seat opportunities, lead and follow and other similar activities. Our CFI does daily weather briefs, and XC task setting and weather briefing on suitable XC days. The club has a Duo - sadly under-utilised much of the time, perhaps mainly because most of the instructors with suitable experience and ability to train XC prefer to fly their own gliders. However, there are several privately owned high performance 2 seaters in which the owners regularly offer XC flights to the less experienced, and an instructor is rostered to instruct XC in the Duo on one day a week. During our local annual competition instructors take less experienced members XC in the Duo and a K21.

All this makes one wonder why 75% of members don't fly XC. One significant factor is the age profile of the membership. Some older members have given up XC, and many of those who have started at retirement age never take it up. But this is of course in addition to the factors already talked about in this thread - fear of landing out, lack of retrieve crews etc. (During our course weeks, pilots do not have to make individual retrieve arrangements, and fellow club members are always willing to come and get a pilot in a field).

On Sunday, 20 July 2014 19:01:53 UTC+1, John Carlyle wrote:
MB, thank you for branching off a comment of mine in the contest improvement thread and starting this one! I'm sorry to be late to the discussion - a trip made posting before now impossible, though.



The comments in this thread are quite good, quite wide ranging, and quite inspiring. But most are aimed at a much higher level than what I consider to be the fundamental problem: how to get glider pilots to even consider trying XC? Broadly speaking, only about 10% of glider pilots in US clubs fly XC. Contest participation is even smaller, perhaps about 3%. These are not good numbers! What can we do?



MB's commendable efforts over about 10 years basically doubled his club's size member-wise, tripled his club's XC pilot contingent, and built a capable XC fleet for non-glider owners to take XC. I think one of the keys to this growth is his comment that several club officers "slowly steered the direction of the club to embrace and allow XC flight", ie, they changed the club culture. This may be the prime ingredient towards generating XC pilots.



For example, my club has (in addition to four G103 training ships) a Duo, an ASW-19, and a G102. Club rules permit using Duo and the single seaters for XC. Here are their 5 year utilization rates in hours (flights):



2014 2013 2012 2011 2010

Duo 18(11) 27(29) 72(94) 80(67) 89(101)

19 25(24) 13(9) 25(19) 51(43) 59(48)

102 22(27) 66(65) 44(59) 5(10) 51(44)



What you cannot see in the numbers is that most of these are local flights, not XC flights. Add in the fact that for 2010 through 2013 only 9 pilots each year (out of about 120 club members) flew XC (determined by their flights appearing on the OLC, on the local Governor's Cup contest, or on a contest score sheet). Two further interesting facts are that 90% of these 9 XC pilots flew ASEL before flying gliders XC, 80% of them own their own glider, and only 20% of them learned to fly gliders at my club. In other words, we've had very little club generation of XC pilots.



Morgan mentioned his frustration is "trying to motivate and introduce XC to people". He's not alone. Like him, we use non-CFIG pilots to introduce people to XC. Also like him, we've given introductory XC flights a number of people. This year we're glad that we've enticed 3 new pilots to fly XC, but these folks bought their own gliders and they were not among our XC introductory flight participants!



Chris Fleming mentioned that he believes the problem in the US might be due to focusing on "low-cost basic training" and ignoring or discouraging "the progression to XC soaring". Perhaps so, my club's experience certainly bears this out. However, Martin Gregorie said that in his UK club "more members go XC than don't". Is the experience at other UK clubs similar to that at Martin's club? I have anecdotal evidence that in several Dutch and German glider clubs only about 10% of their members soar XC, similar to the US. What is the general European glider experience?



Does generating XC pilots come down to club culture?



-John, Q3

On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 3:41:40 PM UTC-4, noel.wade wrote:

one of the issues leading to a lack of XC pilots is that basic training (especially in club environments) tends to be a very drawn-out affair. First, weekends and good weather limit the number of days people are interested in flying ...

I've seen too many students with 'go for it' personalities abandon their soaring training for want of more rapid progress. What about getting promising students on XC flights before they drop out of soaring? Maybe this would help reduce the drop out rate and transition people to XC before they get bored. It might accelerate basic training.

How many XC pilots flew XC (in tandem) before they finished their basic training? I'd guess that that happens at some clubs.

On Sunday, July 20, 2014 5:24:58 PM UTC-6, son_of_flubber wrote:
On Wednesday, July 16, 2014 3:41:40 PM UTC-4, noel.wade wrote:



one of the issues leading to a lack of XC pilots is that basic training (especially in club environments) tends to be a very drawn-out affair. First, weekends and good weather limit the number of days people are interested in flying ...



I've seen too many students with 'go for it' personalities abandon their soaring training for want of more rapid progress. What about getting promising students on XC flights before they drop out of soaring? Maybe this would help reduce the drop out rate and transition people to XC before they get bored. It might accelerate basic training.



How many XC pilots flew XC (in tandem) before they finished their basic training? I'd guess that that happens at some clubs.

Student dual XC of more than 50km is happening more and more as high performance trainers become widely available - something that just wasn't practical with 2-33's. Note that fairly extensive dual and solo XC is required for all airplane student pilots.

" What about getting promising students on XC flights before they drop out of soaring?"

Last month one of my solo students offered to back-seat while I did a short XC flight in the Blanik. All of the common comments:

"Wow, you fly faster than I did!" and "You really bank much more than I did.", airspeed management while thermaling, etc.

I have done that with many of the pre-private students and a couple of long-time private pilots. One can read all the presentations, and listen to the hanger talk, but getting them into a glider and just letting them watch can be a great experience.

MB (Mike Bamberg)

PS, personal note, I just got confirmation of my contest number for my H301, 4M, Love it!

'PS, personal note, I just got confirmation of my contest number for my H301, 4M, Love it!'

My Arcus M has comp no 4M. In the UK you can choose any comp no which is not already taken. Some of my non-engine equipped friends have starred to call it 4 Motor.

Thanks, Waremark, that's interesting data. I'd love to see others post in this thread what their club XC participation rates are (with an XC pilot being defined as someone who posted a flight trace for a sanctioned contest, a fun meet, the OLC or a badge distance leg). Up until now my figures of merit were that only 10% of club members fly XC, and only 3% fly in contests.

Really understanding why people do not start flying XC is difficult. Some of it is personality (Type A's and self-starters probably predominate the XC ranks), but self-doubt must also factor in (people are unsure of their ability to find and use thermals and to properly land out, they're fearful of wrecking their glider, or they feel they'll be mocked). Another big factor has to be available time. Access to equipment can be an issue (suitable glider, proper trailer, car with a hitch), which is probably why most XC pilots own their own plane. Negative comments from instructors can also figure in, as does the lack of knowledge about the incredible satisfaction, sense of achievement and pilot skill growth that comes from flying XC. Naturally, all of these reasons can be addressed and minds changed, but we need to know what the issues are!

In past years my club made the process of flying XC too complicated. It's much better now, only a PPG and a Bronze badge are required. Still, very few people try it, even with our XC pilots talking it up, giving informal seminars, offering XC flights in the Duo, making written material available, etc. Any insights about what has worked elsewhere will be gratefully accepted!

-John, Q3

On Sunday, July 20, 2014 7:24:37 PM UTC-4, waremark wrote:
I think XC is deeply embedded in the club culture at London Gliding Club (UK) with most of the active instructors also being active XC pilots, and new pilots positively encouraged to move on towards XC via Silver after solo and bronze. I just checked and found that 57 members have posted XC flights on the BGA ladder so far this year (a UK specific online ladder used by most club members in preference to OLC). Undoubtedly there are a few more members than this who fly XC, and I would guess that about 25% of our 270 club members do so.

We run one or two 9 day XC courses a year, comprising lectures, 2 seat opportunities, lead and follow and other similar activities. Our CFI does daily weather briefs, and XC task setting and weather briefing on suitable XC days. The club has a Duo - sadly under-utilised much of the time, perhaps mainly because most of the instructors with suitable experience and ability to train XC prefer to fly their own gliders. However, there are several privately owned high performance 2 seaters in which the owners regularly offer XC flights to the less experienced, and an instructor is rostered to instruct XC in the Duo on one day a week. During our local annual competition instructors take less experienced members XC in the Duo and a K21.

All this makes one wonder why 75% of members don't fly XC. One significant factor is the age profile of the membership. Some older members have given up XC, and many of those who have started at retirement age never take it up. But this is of course in addition to the factors already talked about in this thread - fear of landing out, lack of retrieve crews etc. (During our course weeks, pilots do not have to make individual retrieve arrangements, and fellow club members are always willing to come and get a pilot in a field).

Instructors can have a lot to do with a new pilot developing a fear of XC in that even if they aren't overtly hostile to XC, they convey their own fears of XC in many subtle ways such as tone of voice, body language, or just the way a training syllabus is presented. Primacy embeds this fear in students in a way that is very difficult to overcome later. The same is true of group dynamics. If the student is surrounded with club members who fear XC, (Perhaps because they were trained by an XC-hostile instructor.) it's likely they will pick up on this and become fearful themselves. Taken together, you have a self-perpetuating fear of XC.

The solution is to insist on instructors who are enthusiastic about XC and to elevate the status and influence of successful XC pilots so they tend to dominate group dynamics.

FAI badges can facilitate this. I'd like to see a club environment where badges are worn proudly - especially by instructors.

I'm happy to report that the last person I mentored in the Duo was 15 miles out from the airport yesterday in the 1-26. Not technically XC since he remained above glide, but the tutoring and confidence building in finding and working lift and strategies for getting up paid off. He spent 3.8 hours in the 1-26 I think and I've signed him off to step up into the Russia for a bit longer legs.

Really nice to see someone progressing safely and smartly.

Took another person up yesterday for 3+ hours of XC and their longest flight. This was a CFIG that doesn't get to go XC much from his home glider port so it was a good learning experience for him. Even included a near land out in a remote valley. Thankfully avoided adding that to my list of mentoring accomplishments and instead just gave the Low Save experience.

Of note, a great source of good glider pilots might be helicopter pilots. Every helicopter pilot I've flown with has had excellent stick and rudder skills and a very light touch.





On Monday, July 21, 2014 9:27:46 AM UTC-7, Bill D wrote:
Instructors can have a lot to do with a new pilot developing a fear of XC in that even if they aren't overtly hostile to XC, they convey their own fears of XC in many subtle ways such as tone of voice, body language, or just the way a training syllabus is presented. Primacy embeds this fear in students in a way that is very difficult to overcome later. The same is true of group dynamics. If the student is surrounded with club members who fear XC, (Perhaps because they were trained by an XC-hostile instructor.) it's likely they will pick up on this and become fearful themselves. Taken together, you have a self-perpetuating fear of XC.



The solution is to insist on instructors who are enthusiastic about XC and to elevate the status and influence of successful XC pilots so they tend to dominate group dynamics.



FAI badges can facilitate this. I'd like to see a club environment where badges are worn proudly - especially by instructors.