Major McSally takes command :)

On 9 May 2004 22:58:30 -0700, (Jim Thomas)
wrote:

Aw, c'mon, Ed; give some credit to those folks who spent hours and
days in the ballistic missile holes. I would argue that what they did
on alert had more to do with the collapse of the Soviet Union than
anything we fighter pilots ever did. My last USAF assignment was with
the Ballistic Missile Office at Norton AFB (since shut down). I'm
authorized to wear the pocket rocket (and did) because of my time
there. I didn't feel that I deserved it, since I had never sat in the
hole, but I wore it anyway to show support to the folks that did. I
thank God that I got to see the sky most times that I did my job,
unlike the folks in the holes. And thank God that the SAC missileers
never got to shoot theirs.

Jim Thomas

I always give credit where credit is due. The missileers did the job
assigned them with professionalism and skill. My comments on the badge
were in the nature of humor and not a disparagement of their efforts.

That being said, however, I'll disagree with your contention that
strategic missiles did more to hasten the collapse of the Soviet Union
than the tactical forces and the continued development and application
of weapons that demonstrated conclusively the superiority of American
technology, training and innovation. The collapse of Soviet client
forces and the inability of Soviet doctrine to counter or even compete
effectively led to the collapse.

Sitting and waiting with a deterrent force kept the peace, but it also
insured a stalemate. Demonstrating over the years that SA-2, 3, 4, 6,
7, 9, 11, 12, 13, etc. etc. couldn't protect against American airpower
and that MiG-17, 19, 21, 23, 27, 29 and AA-2,, etc etc, couldn't
counter US fighters, the armor couldn't shoot, scoot and communicate
as did ours and the maneuver elements of the ground forces couldn't
integrate and coordinate at the level of our tactical forces, and the
Navy couldn't project and sustain operations globally as ours could,
etc. etc. That's what led to the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Snapping your fingers will keep the elephants away, if they aren't
coming anyway. Going where the elephant lives and kicking him in the
balls will get him to move out of the region.



Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus wrote in message

That being said, however, I'll disagree with your contention that
strategic missiles did more to hasten the collapse of the Soviet Union
than the tactical forces and the continued development and application
of weapons that demonstrated conclusively the superiority of American
technology, training and innovation. The collapse of Soviet client
forces and the inability of Soviet doctrine to counter or even compete
effectively led to the collapse.

Sitting and waiting with a deterrent force kept the peace, but it also
insured a stalemate. Demonstrating over the years that SA-2, 3, 4, 6,
7, 9, 11, 12, 13, etc. etc. couldn't protect against American airpower
and that MiG-17, 19, 21, 23, 27, 29 and AA-2,, etc etc, couldn't
counter US fighters, the armor couldn't shoot, scoot and communicate
as did ours and the maneuver elements of the ground forces couldn't
integrate and coordinate at the level of our tactical forces, and the
Navy couldn't project and sustain operations globally as ours could,
etc. etc. That's what led to the collapse of the Soviet Union.


I agree with everything you said, and defer to your expertise in these
areas. However, it is also true that trying to keep up with our
strategic weapons during the Reagan administration-- Peacekeeper,
Small ICBM, stealth technology, and others-- had no small part in
breaking the bear's budget and hastening the collapse of the Soviet
Union.

Jim Thomas

Jim Thomas wrote:

However, it is also true that trying to keep up with our
strategic weapons during the Reagan administration-- Peacekeeper,
Small ICBM, stealth technology, and others-- had no small part in
breaking the bear's budget and hastening the collapse of the Soviet
Union.

Let's not forget Mathias Rust


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

Ed Rasimus Wrote:

Sitting and waiting with a deterrent force kept the peace, but it also
insured a stalemate. Demonstrating over the years that SA-2, 3, 4, 6,
7, 9, 11, 12, 13, etc. etc. couldn't protect against American airpower
and that MiG-17, 19, 21, 23, 27, 29 and AA-2,, etc etc, couldn't
counter US fighters, the armor
couldn't shoot, scoot and communicate
as did ours and the maneuver elements of the ground forces couldn't
integrate and coordinate at the level of our tactical forces, and the
Navy couldn't project and sustain operations globally as ours could,
etc. etc. That's what led to the collapse of the Soviet Union.


I think this may be a chicken-egg argument. I can argue that without U.S. ICBMs
(and hey, I'll even throw in SLBMs) to counter the Soviet equivelent, we would
never have been able to duel with Soviet client states as the USSR would have
felt much more at ease to step in and escalate things.

Snapping your fingers will keep the elephants away, if they aren't
coming anyway. Going where the elephant lives and kicking him in the
balls will get him to move out of the region.

In this case, the conventional world may have been kicking the elephant in the
nuts, but the nuclear guys had a knife at his throat allowing that to happen.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

On 10 May 2004 21:48:28 GMT, (BUFDRVR) wrote:

Ed Rasimus Wrote:

Snapping your fingers will keep the elephants away, if they aren't
coming anyway. Going where the elephant lives and kicking him in the
balls will get him to move out of the region.

In this case, the conventional world may have been kicking the elephant in the
nuts, but the nuclear guys had a knife at his throat allowing that to happen.

Without torturing the metaphor too much more, let me suggest that
while the blade was sharp, the willingness to be deluged by the
barrels of elephant blood that would have generated made it a fairly
certain thing that the slice wouldn't have occurred.


Ed Rasimus
Fighter Pilot (USAF-Ret)
"When Thunder Rolled"
Smithsonian Institution Press
ISBN #1-58834-103-8

Ed Rasimus Wrote:

Without torturing the metaphor too much more, let me suggest that
while the blade was sharp, the willingness to be deluged by the
barrels of elephant blood that would have generated made it a fairly
certain thing that the slice wouldn't have occurred.


Not unless the elephant broke out his blade first. Rest assured, had the
elephant taken out his blade the deluge of blood would have been a secondary
concern. I herby declare this metaphor dead. Let me finish by saying Ed that I
believe the balance (however rough it was at times) between our conventional
force and our nuclear force combined to successfully win the Cold War.


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

(BUFDRVR) wrote:

Ed Rasimus Wrote:

Without torturing the metaphor too much more, let me suggest that
while the blade was sharp, the willingness to be deluged by the
barrels of elephant blood that would have generated made it a fairly
certain thing that the slice wouldn't have occurred.


Not unless the elephant broke out his blade first. Rest assured, had the
elephant taken out his blade the deluge of blood would have been a secondary
concern. I herby declare this metaphor dead. Let me finish by saying Ed that I
believe the balance (however rough it was at times) between our conventional
force and our nuclear force combined to successfully win the Cold War.

BUFDRVR

A very interesting little play...
--

-Gord.