Open Discussion; Creating XC pilots

On Tuesday, July 15, 2014 8:28:38 PM UTC-4, SoaringXCellence wrote:
All,

I presented at the SSA conference this last winter on the efforts of our club to build XC soaring pilots. This has been an emphasis for me for many years (hence my moniker SoaringXCellence), to the point I went and personally bought a G103 just so I could provide the training (since been sold, congratulations Coastal Soaring).

In the last 12 years the Willamette Valley club has gone from an average of 50-60 active pilots, to over 80 (we finished the last year with over 120, out of Portland Oregon!!)

I attribute this growth to the support the club now gives to members that want to go XC. Fifteen years ago we did NOT permit club gliders to be flown XC. This meant that potential XC pilots had to get their own ship before attempting ANY XC flights. Quite a deterrent! We had a few syndicates but most XC flights were in single owner ships. It was the only way to participate.

Several years ago several of us began an XC soaring Special Interest Group (SIG) in the club and met frequently to discuss flights and generally support each others efforts (we agreed that we would retrieve for each other as needed). Several of the club officers were in that group and slowly steered the direction of the club to embrace and allow XC flight.

We now have 3 single-place ships that are set up and available for XC flights (another if you count the SGS 1-26) and there is competition for their time on any reasonable soaring day. We have a Twin Astir for dual XC flights (as well as the Blanik 1-23, which I do take XC!).

The result is that from 2004 to 2014 we have grown from 6 pilots trying OLC to over 20 on any given year. We also have champions in the region 8 Sports class (congratulations, Joe Steele) that only begin flying 4 years ago..

I'm still the primary XC training instructor and could fill my time with XC students most days the field is open.

Another factor in the growth is a special training program called the "5-pack". This is a program that provide more than just a single "sled-ride" flight where skills can be developed and a more complete exposure of the sport can occur. For a cost of $450 the student gets a 3-month club membership, 5 tows to 3000 feet, aircraft rental and instructor for up to an hour. The 3-month membership allows the student more time to complete the flights (rather than just one weekend). This year we are currently restricting the number of 5-packs due to the instructor's student load. We can't handle more at the moment! I think we're teaching 10-15 currently. This is in addition to the other club pilots moving through the training from Student to Commercial.

We have about a 70-80% conversion of the 5-pack to a full club membership.. Most are still with the club after 5 years.

SO that's the Willamette Valley effort to grow the XC pilot pupolation. I'd like to hear other efforts and ideas.

Sorry for the long post,

MB

Condor guy he

I would like to suggest incorporating the use of glider flight simulation (Condor) into your XC training program. Aspiring pilots can be trained in advance of the season in the fundamentals of XC. The instruction can take place individually or in groups, at a distance or locally. After initial training, students could practice for hours on their own or use Condors networked mode (Multi-player) to "fly" with their fellow students, their instructor, or other XC mentors on dozens of XC flights over varied terrain in a variety of weather conditions and gain valuable procedural and decision-making experience before applying that knowledge and skill in the real world once the season begins.

Cheers, Scott Manley CFIG

I am currently working on an article regarding gliding safety. Not sure when it may be posted - probably on our web site (www.eglider.org) our Facebook page, perhaps Soaring magazine, or Gliding International magazine.

The article uses data garnished from the NTSB accident reports. This data is not always correct, but one can use it to gain useful statistics.

I reduced the official NTSB reports in a new book, "Glider Accident Reports," ($14.95) to useable, readable size, which clearly indicates where the major problems are and hints at what can and should be done in attempts to reduce the accident statistics. You can order from our web site, www.eglider.org.

Landings are clearly the major problem regarding gliding safety. During the recent 11 year period there were about 500 accidents serious enough to be reported to the NTSB.

Of these, 167 occurred during airport landings, and 99 off field landings.

As we observe typical, low stress on-airport landings, it is clear glider pilots often perform what can be called undisciplined, incorrect landing patterns. Under the stress of an upcoming off-airport landing, flight logs show the discipline is very often extremely bad.

Over the years, many articles have been written in gliding publications. There are some controversial suggestions made, and even more being used in flight training.

Despite attempts by different Pilots, CFIs clubs and organizations, the landing phase of flight training discipline's varies widely.

As a sidebar, some years ago, there was an international gathering of notable CFI's from around the world held in Sweden. The most significant finding was how little differences there were among those notables regarding all phases of flight.

Tom Knauff

On Sunday, December 21, 2014 12:16:00 PM UTC-7, wrote:
I am currently working on an article regarding gliding safety. Not sure when it may be posted - probably on our web site (www.eglider.org) our Facebook page, perhaps Soaring magazine, or Gliding International magazine.

The article uses data garnished from the NTSB accident reports. This data is not always correct, but one can use it to gain useful statistics.

I reduced the official NTSB reports in a new book, "Glider Accident Reports," ($14.95) to useable, readable size, which clearly indicates where the major problems are and hints at what can and should be done in attempts to reduce the accident statistics. You can order from our web site, www.eglider.org.

Landings are clearly the major problem regarding gliding safety. During the recent 11 year period there were about 500 accidents serious enough to be reported to the NTSB.

Of these, 167 occurred during airport landings, and 99 off field landings..

As we observe typical, low stress on-airport landings, it is clear glider pilots often perform what can be called undisciplined, incorrect landing patterns. Under the stress of an upcoming off-airport landing, flight logs show the discipline is very often extremely bad.

Over the years, many articles have been written in gliding publications. There are some controversial suggestions made, and even more being used in flight training.

Despite attempts by different Pilots, CFIs clubs and organizations, the landing phase of flight training discipline's varies widely.

As a sidebar, some years ago, there was an international gathering of notable CFI's from around the world held in Sweden. The most significant finding was how little differences there were among those notables regarding all phases of flight.

Tom Knauff

I agree landings are the main problem. One improves those stats the same way one gets to Carnegie Hall - practice, practice, practice.

Unfortunately, landing practice using aero tow is expensive so many skimp on landings. Scott Manley will propose the use of simulators for landing practice and he's absolutely correct. I would suggest complementing simulator landings with winch launch where one can buy as many as 10 real landings for the price of one pattern tow.

When a pilot becomes truly proficient and confident in their landing skills, XC looks a lot less intimidating.

I suspect one of the main problems with landings away from the home field is that many pilots won't give up looking for lift at an altitude where a proper disciplined approach is possible and end up making a rushed approach with poor speed control and turns at low altitude. I know I'm guilty of this!

Mike

Just like we see everyday at the gliderport while pilots are performing "normal" landings.

Tom

On 12/21/2014 3:02 PM, Mike the Strike wrote:
I suspect one of the main problems with landings away from the home field
is that many pilots won't give up looking for lift at an altitude where a
proper disciplined approach is possible and end up making a rushed approach
with poor speed control and turns at low altitude. I know I'm guilty of
this!

Mike


I doff my cap in your direction for having the spine to publicly admit to
occasional lack of pre-planned off-field-landing pattern discipline (from
someone relatively well-known in the SW US contest scene, no less!); maybe
doing so will motivate someone fairly new on the XC learning curve to re-think
their current - and possibly misguided - XC outlanding plan. (I suspect that
most of the honest among us will mentally admit to being able to benefit from
an unblinking rethink...)

Perhaps I was more cowardly than many fresh out of college, my age upon
discovering soaring, but the thought of making an off-field landing was
genuinely intimidating to me at the relatively immortal age of 22. I may have
then felt mySELF immortal (can't remember, ha ha!)...but definitely not the
glider!

And not that I was looking for any, but I never found reason to dispute the
knowledge my officemate (Wil Schuemann) and my instructor sought to impart, a
fundamental part of it being that an off-field pattern should be no different
than one to one's departure airport, and if anything it should be better, more
precise, and as "spotworthy" as any dead-day airfield spot landing contest's
winner's. In their views, the only difference in an OFL would (and should)
have been the pre-pattern-entry-height field assessment...and they both
emphasized that pattern entry height should be identical to a routine one
entered at the home field.

All that insight was imparted to me in '72/'73. Since then I've seen, learned
of and read about (WAY too many) reasons NOT to dispute their wisdom and
advice. The worst cases have involved serious pilot injury and death;
definitely no fun to be had on those kind of retrieve adventures.

My observational experience includes only two kinds of broken-in-OFL
sailplanes: 1) poor surface/approach/obstruction/etc. field choice and 2)
lousy (usually, close-in, too fast, too high/overshot) pattern. Sometimes 1) &
2) were combined.

When it comes to glider landing patterns - OFL or on-airport - it definitely
pays to have a plan and to fly it. My best patterns have been when I carried
on a running conversation in my head about how - and why - the pattern was
going, while some memorably mediocre (being kind to myself) ones were flown by
rote.

YMMV,
Bob W.

On Sunday, December 21, 2014 5:42:38 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Just like we see everyday at the gliderport while pilots are performing "normal" landings.

Tom


It takes a lot of practice to pull off a crappy landing in a small field. Glad those guys are putting in the time at the airport!

-Evan Ludeman / T8

I'm a newly minted CPL-G, who also hold ASEL, ASES, heli, and instrument/airplane, who has a lot of XC experience in powered flight.

I have searched in vain for a place to start training for XC, and it has been very difficult because most glider clubs and commercial operation websites focus on club member activities, PPL-G training, and sightseeing rides (commercial). Also, I'm not by nature a "joiner," and the club process (go to some meetings, join up, fly with some people, etc) doesn't fit my Type A personality. My messages to club info email addresses info@blahblah go unanswered, or the people who've responded are like, yeah, sure, come to a meeting, which I didn't feel was very inviting.

My experience with finding a place to learn wave has been similar.

So my current plan is to buy a used SLMG and start flying.

Any thoughts or ideas please let me know.

--bob

On Tuesday, December 23, 2014 10:09:10 AM UTC-5, Bob Pasker wrote:
I'm a newly minted CPL-G, who also hold ASEL, ASES, heli, and instrument/airplane, who has a lot of XC experience in powered flight.

I have searched in vain for a place to start training for XC, and it has been very difficult because most glider clubs and commercial operation websites focus on club member activities, PPL-G training, and sightseeing rides (commercial). Also, I'm not by nature a "joiner," and the club process (go to some meetings, join up, fly with some people, etc) doesn't fit my Type A personality. My messages to club info email addresses info@blahblah go unanswered, or the people who've responded are like, yeah, sure, come to a meeting, which I didn't feel was very inviting.

My experience with finding a place to learn wave has been similar.

So my current plan is to buy a used SLMG and start flying.

Any thoughts or ideas please let me know.

--bob


Hi Bob,

"my Type A personality" Is there any other kind? - seriously I have been around pilots for over 40 years and of course one myself. If you are a lone wolf and comfortable with that then maybe a motor glider and flying alone is the right thing for you. I can be pretty independent at times but, after i land I just love the comradely of share fling talk with other pilots. Its how I learn, its how i validate my learning, I had a situation where I couldn't fly for a year, couldn't really do anything except go to work. I missed flying very much and really missed those war story conversations over beer and pizza.

Dennis

On Tuesday, December 23, 2014 8:09:10 AM UTC-7, Bob Pasker wrote:
I'm a newly minted CPL-G, who also hold ASEL, ASES, heli, and instrument/airplane, who has a lot of XC experience in powered flight.

I have searched in vain for a place to start training for XC, and it has been very difficult because most glider clubs and commercial operation websites focus on club member activities, PPL-G training, and sightseeing rides (commercial). Also, I'm not by nature a "joiner," and the club process (go to some meetings, join up, fly with some people, etc) doesn't fit my Type A personality. My messages to club info email addresses info@blahblah go unanswered, or the people who've responded are like, yeah, sure, come to a meeting, which I didn't feel was very inviting.

My experience with finding a place to learn wave has been similar.

So my current plan is to buy a used SLMG and start flying.

Any thoughts or ideas please let me know.

--bob

You've just run up against the intrinsic culture divide between gliders and airplanes.

I have about the same airplane background as you do so I understand where you are coming from. Owning an airplane makes flying incredibly simple. Just call the FBO and ask them to tow your airplane to the ramp and fuel it. When you arrive at the airport, just walk to the airplane with the keys in your pocket and go fly. You don't have to talk to anybody. Even flying a rental airplane is pretty much like that. You can fly as many hours or miles as your wallet can withstand.

Soaring is very different and it's not about simplicity and success depends on more than the thickness of one's wallet (although that helps). Gliders can't get into the sky without a team effort. They need assembling, pushing, someone to fly the tow plane, someone to run the wing and, if you land out, you will need someone to come get you. They need to know if they do this for you, you will do it for them. That's why the invitation to a meeting. It's inherently a group activity. I've been told many times I'm a type A but I nonetheless enjoy the teamwork.

If you really can't get your head around this maybe a SLMG is the way to go but even then you'll need some help from time to time.

So why do it? What are the rewards? Soaring can be hard but doing things that are hard often brings rewards in a feeling of accomplishment that airplane flying simply can't match. Learning to work with a team also has its rewards.