Towpilots ignoring turn signals

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 1:51:55 PM UTC-4, Bob Pasker wrote:
So, I was getting my first tow at a very busy and very well-respected gliderport, and I saw an area where I wanted to go, so I shift a plane's width opposite the turn direction and stayed there. The tow pilot kept going straight ahead. OK, maybe he didn't see me, or maybe like a fishing guide he is taking me to a secret spot with 10kts of lift.

Next day, different tow pilot, similar turn request, no response. When I asked the second tow pilot back on the ground, he says he didn't notice it.. They never pay attention to the position of the gliders because the glider pilots don't know how to stay on tow, and deviations are just an example of their poor flying habits.

--bob

What made you think you knew where to go better than the local tow pilot?
UH

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 4:55:09 PM UTC-4, wrote:
What made you think you knew where to go better than the local tow pilot?
UH

that's a great point, if the tow pilot had made it

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 6:33:24 PM UTC-7, Bob Pasker wrote:
On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 4:55:09 PM UTC-4, wrote:
What made you think you knew where to go better than the local tow pilot?
UH

that's a great point, if the tow pilot had made it

snip "What made you think you knew where to go better than the local tow pilot"
I'll argue with that; yes a good local tow pilot, particularly also a glider pilot, will take you to the house thermal but often times, I will emphasize some operations, will hire non glider rated tow pilots who although maybe qualified sticks, will have no real idea what the glider on the other end of the rope is looking for.
The FAR's are clear on signals and communications and there is no rime or reason why one can't have prior or inflight communications as to where one wishes to go and how one would like to spend his or her money.
I for one prefer signals on tow, as long as both the tow pilot ( and myself included ) have a clear understanding as to what they are. It is far too easy to not hear clearly, misunderstand muffled radio transmissions, he said, she said etc.
Just my opinion.
6PK

On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 9:33:24 PM UTC-4, Bob Pasker wrote:
On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 4:55:09 PM UTC-4, wrote:
What made you think you knew where to go better than the local tow pilot?
UH

that's a great point, if the tow pilot had made it

A 35 year tow pilot just did.
When waiting for your launch, watch where the tows are going. More often than not the tow pilot will be trying to take you to known lift. When I'm towing during soaring conditions, I'll go to where I put the last guy in lift until it cycles. Very commonly we'll get 2-3(twice that with 2 tugs) in the same thermal before needing to locate the next thermal which likely is relatively nearby.
If you've seen where the other gliders are climbing, hopefully he or she goes to the same place. If not, you know where to go.
I agree that radios are far preferable to tail yanking. We get enough tail yanking when students are learning wake boxing skills.
UH

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 8:17:48 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 9:33:24 PM UTC-4, Bob Pasker wrote:
On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 4:55:09 PM UTC-4, wrote:
What made you think you knew where to go better than the local tow pilot?
UH

that's a great point, if the tow pilot had made it

A 35 year tow pilot just did.
When waiting for your launch, watch where the tows are going. More often than not the tow pilot will be trying to take you to known lift. When I'm towing during soaring conditions, I'll go to where I put the last guy in lift until it cycles. Very commonly we'll get 2-3(twice that with 2 tugs) in the same thermal before needing to locate the next thermal which likely is relatively nearby.
If you've seen where the other gliders are climbing, hopefully he or she goes to the same place. If not, you know where to go.
I agree that radios are far preferable to tail yanking. We get enough tail yanking when students are learning wake boxing skills.
UH

well, I'll send you to the gliderport, and you teach them how a real towpilot works!

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 8:17:48 AM UTC-4, wrote:
On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 9:33:24 PM UTC-4, Bob Pasker wrote:
On Wednesday, April 29, 2015 at 4:55:09 PM UTC-4, wrote:
What made you think you knew where to go better than the local tow pilot?
UH

that's a great point, if the tow pilot had made it

A 35 year tow pilot just did.
When waiting for your launch, watch where the tows are going. More often than not the tow pilot will be trying to take you to known lift. When I'm towing during soaring conditions, I'll go to where I put the last guy in lift until it cycles. Very commonly we'll get 2-3(twice that with 2 tugs) in the same thermal before needing to locate the next thermal which likely is relatively nearby.
If you've seen where the other gliders are climbing, hopefully he or she goes to the same place. If not, you know where to go.
I agree that radios are far preferable to tail yanking. We get enough tail yanking when students are learning wake boxing skills.
UH

ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said he ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow, not because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have been a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.

At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:

ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
h=
e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
no=
t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
bee=
n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.

OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.

On 4/30/2015 7:28 AM, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:

ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
h=
e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
no=
t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
bee=
n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.

OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.


Wow! Is is still winter in the northern hemisphere? How about the concept of,
"When in Rome, do as the Romans."?

Just to keep the waters churned, I submit that for an individual pilot to
begin arbitrarily making "anti-Roman" decisions is arguably crazier than
intelligently applying the "When in Rome..." philosophy.

I'll go back and hibernate, now.

Bob W.

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 9:30:05 AM UTC-4, Don Johnstone wrote:
At 13:13 30 April 2015, Bob Pasker wrote:

ok, go back and read my origina message. the tow pilot that towed me said
h=
e ignored my signals because glider pilots don't know how to fly on tow,
no=
t because he was taking me to an area of lift, which I admit would have
bee=
n a great answer if he had (not you) had made it.

OK let us look at this sensibly. For a glider pilot on tow to move his
glider in an attempt to steer the tug is just plain crazy, only a complete
idiot would attempt it. In over 50 years of gliding this is the first time
I have ever heard anyone suggest the procedure.
The duty of a glider pilot is to remain, as far as possible, in the correct
position behind the tug. The glider goes where the tug takes him and if you
have no radio contact there is NO safe way of telling him where you want to
go. An out of position glider is putting the combination at risk. While it
is acceptable to demonstrate out of position, for training purposes, it is
essential that the tug pilot is briefed, and agrees before hand.
If you got any more crazy ideas please keep them to yourself. Someone with
limited knowledge might just read your crazy idea and try it out.

I'm not sure what planet you have been gliding on, but use of steering signals has been taught and used for decades, especially when radios in tugs were rare.
There is nothing fundementally dangerous about the technique when properly done.
The wake boxing skill set required in US training and licensing requires mastery and demonstration of the safe skills needed.
It ain't crazy.
UH

On Thursday, April 30, 2015 at 10:16:16 AM UTC-4, wrote:

There is nothing fundamentally dangerous about the technique when properly done.


The BGA reference (page 30) says that pulling the tug laterally has the potential to abruptly stall the vertical stabilizer of the tug, inducing a flick roll of the tug and a possible midair collision. It goes on to say "The highest risk of a lateral upset is during the
'glider cannot release' signal demonstration".


See Section 42 of the BGA Aerotowing Guidance Notes (LATERAL
TUG UPSETS):

https://www.gliding.co.uk/bgainfo/cl.../documents/aer
otownotes.pdf