Cockpit Size and Comfort

Ahhh, there is nothing more fun than shopping for a new-used glider.

There's a nice Grob 102 on Wings and Wheels. That's got to be the #1 value in used glass gliders. Typically around $15,000, you get 34:1 real world L/D and all the performance needed to do lots of XC training.

I flew one for a year and loved it. Heavy on the controls but climbs and penetrates well. I would only lose a little flying with a Ventus and and LS8 if we were at 65 kts or less....
I'm 6'4" 165 lbs. It's very comfortable. Did my silver duration in it and wasn't even hurting in my back by the end. You would have ample room and you will be able to pull your knees up and stretch a bit in the cockpit if needed. Good to keep the blood flowing.
As others have said though, 5'9" 200 lbs is pretty standard, you are going to fit in most everything comfortably. As I'm sure you've been told, ease of assembly and the trailer rigging is major because if it sucks to put together, you will start coming up with reasons not to do it and fly the club ships.
With that said, the Grob is not my favorite to put together. The wings are tricky to get on for the first 10 assemblies but then you learn the tricks and do it much faster. Airbrakes are excellent and noisy so you'll never mistake them for being closed. Built like a tank and sort of feels like it flying, but thermals very well.

On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 7:00:23 AM UTC-5, PBA wrote:

I flew one for a year and loved it. Heavy on the controls but climbs and penetrates well. I would only lose a little flying with a Ventus and and LS8 if we were at 65 kts or less....

Unless you were thermalling, the only time a Ventus or an LS8 will be flying at 65 kts or less is in the pattern... ;^)

Seriously, a G-102 is a nice club ship, but probably not the best for a first XC ship - if only because it can be a pain to rig and derig (BTDT). I would recommend the LS4 as probably the absolute best (and a much more comfortable cockpit than the G-102, IMO), but they can be rare. Next, ASW-19, Pegase, DGs, etc all have comfortable cockpits - the best advise was given earlier - try them out. Someone mentioned that the Pik-20 had a big cockpit - yes if you are tall and thin, but it's a bit narrow and you have to have room to move the flap handle, so definitely check it out first.

But comfort is what you make of it. I'm pretty hefty (5-11, 240) and fit just fine in my LS6. I just have to make sure I don't have to fold a chart inflight! But it's a racing glider and I like it nice and tight...

Anyway, it's the condition of the trailer that really counts!

Kirk
66

On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 10:31:39 AM UTC-4, kirk.stant wrote:
On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 7:00:23 AM UTC-5, PBA wrote:

I flew one for a year and loved it. Heavy on the controls but climbs and penetrates well. I would only lose a little flying with a Ventus and and LS8 if we were at 65 kts or less....

Unless you were thermalling, the only time a Ventus or an LS8 will be flying at 65 kts or less is in the pattern... ;^)

Seriously, a G-102 is a nice club ship, but probably not the best for a first XC ship - if only because it can be a pain to rig and derig (BTDT). I would recommend the LS4 as probably the absolute best (and a much more comfortable cockpit than the G-102, IMO), but they can be rare. Next, ASW-19, Pegase, DGs, etc all have comfortable cockpits - the best advise was given earlier - try them out. Someone mentioned that the Pik-20 had a big cockpit - yes if you are tall and thin, but it's a bit narrow and you have to have room to move the flap handle, so definitely check it out first.

But comfort is what you make of it. I'm pretty hefty (5-11, 240) and fit just fine in my LS6. I just have to make sure I don't have to fold a chart inflight! But it's a racing glider and I like it nice and tight...

Anyway, it's the condition of the trailer that really counts!

Kirk
66

Ask 20 glider pilots this question and you'll get 20 different answers. So, FWIW...

I'm 6'0", 200 lbs, with shoulders and a back that developed their shape thanks to 30 years of swimming. I'm not super wide but the upper back is where I run into issues.

I owned a Grob Astir CS, and it's without a doubt the roomiest cockpit. But, I've flown all of the following and managed to fit pretty well (LS 3,4, 6, and 8). ASW-20, 27 and ASG-29. Libelle 301. Discus and Discus 2b. The only one that was a definitely not for me was a Ventus 2a, but you already knew that.

So, I think the advice to pick your price point first, then go sit in a few gliders that fall into that range makes the most sense.

As far as the Grob was concerned, my two cents. It was actually quite easy to rig if you took the time to figure out a few minor tricks. Those have been covered in prior threads. The other point is that the Grob always wanted to have at least some water. With 20 gallons, it still climbed very well and it ran much, much better. Dry, it was a struggle to keep up with other standard class ships on the run (note that at that point in my soaring career I was probably only 180 lbs, so I had even less personal ballast).

Erik Mann (P3)

snip

Anyway, it's the condition of the trailer that really counts!

Kirk 66

----------------------------

Gotta call BS on the trailer thing. If it's flying you want, who cares
about the trailer? It might add 10-15 minutes to rig and derig times
but that's a miniscule part of the soaring day.

I've had Pfeiffer, Minden, Komet, Cobra, and LAK trailers and, though I
preferred the Cobra, it was the glider I was after, not the trailer.

My advice is: Get the glider you want and take whatever trailer it
comes in. After all, you don't sit in the trailer all day, do you? BTW,
I'm very pleased with the comfort of my LAK-17a and the LAK T5 trailer
is designed specifically for that glider.
--
Dan Marotta

Le mardi 5 mai 2015 16:54:48 UTC+2, Dan Marotta a écrit*:
snip



*Anyway, it's the condition of the trailer that really counts!




Kirk
66



----------------------------



Gotta call BS on the trailer thing.* If it's flying you want, who
cares about the trailer?* It might add 10-15 minutes to rig and
derig times but that's a miniscule part of the soaring day.



I've had Pfeiffer, Minden, Komet, Cobra, and LAK trailers and,
though I preferred the Cobra, it was the glider I was after, not the
trailer.



My advice is:* Get the glider you want and take whatever trailer it
comes in.* After all, you don't sit in the trailer all day, do you?*
BTW, I'm very pleased with the comfort of my LAK-17a and the LAK T5
trailer is designed specifically for that glider.


--

Dan Marotta

I would second that. Get the best glider you can afford - any upgrade from a ****ty trailer to a decent trailer is relatively cheap and can be done a year or two later.

On 5/5/2015 9:10 AM, Tango Whisky wrote:
Le mardi 5 mai 2015 16:54:48 UTC+2, Dan Marotta a écrit :
snip

Anyway, it's the condition of the trailer that really counts!

----------------------------

Gotta call BS on the trailer thing. If it's flying you want, who cares
about the trailer? It might add 10-15 minutes to rig and derig times but
that's a miniscule part of the soaring day.
Snip
My advice is: Get the glider you want and take whatever trailer it comes
in. After all, you don't sit in the trailer all day, do you?

I would second that. Get the best glider you can afford - any upgrade from
a ****ty trailer to a decent trailer is relatively cheap and can be done a
year or two later.

"What D.M. and TW said."

Having owned trailers ranging from "truly a pig" to - functionally - "Cobra
equivalent"...I replaced the pig as soon as I came across another unloved one
for the right price, and (later on) Greatly Appreciated the Cobra equivalent
from youth to geezerdom.

My working hypothesis is today's commonly-expressed RAS opinion of "Get a good
trailer!!!" stems from a combination of: 1) that option actually exists today
(whereas it pretty much was a rarity in [say] the late 1970s), and 2) aging
glider pilots. For those imbued with the enthusiasm and energy of youth and/or
beginnerdom, it's likely far down the list (as it, IMHO, should be)...

Bob W.

On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 10:54:48 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
snip

Gotta call BS on the trailer thing.* If it's flying you want, who
cares about the trailer?* It might add 10-15 minutes to rig and
derig times but that's a miniscule part of the soaring day.

snip
Dan Marotta

If you think a ****ty trailer only adds 10-15 minutes, then you never used a real "****ty" one !

Todd Smith
3S

Then I guess I don't really know what a "****ty trailer" is.

The homebuilt trailer that my ASW-19 came in was awful until I made a
few minor modifications to make setting up the trailer for rigging
quickly. That mainly amounted to a bolted-on support on the top of the
tail gate which placed the gate at the proper height for rigging; when
extended, the main wheel was only about 1/2 inch off the ground. I also
added tracks on the tail gate to guide the cradle, and stops so that the
glider could be put back on the cradle for derigging.

Those few mods allowed me to get rid of a rickety jack and a couple of
pieces of wood that were previously used to prop up the tail gate. I
probably spent less than $20 on those mods and could then rig about as
quickly as the Cobra guys. Of course, I couldn't leave a wing on the
dolly while walking it around but then I always had a helper in rigging.

I was younger then, too...

On 5/5/2015 11:57 AM, wrote:
On Tuesday, May 5, 2015 at 10:54:48 AM UTC-4, Dan Marotta wrote:
snip
Gotta call BS on the trailer thing. If it's flying you want, who
cares about the trailer? It might add 10-15 minutes to rig and
derig times but that's a miniscule part of the soaring day.

snip
Dan Marotta
If you think a ****ty trailer only adds 10-15 minutes, then you never used a real "****ty" one !

Todd Smith
3S

--
Dan Marotta

Gotta call BS on the trailer thing.* If it's flying you want, who
cares about the trailer?* It might add 10-15 minutes to rig and
derig times but that's a miniscule part of the soaring day.





Hmm.. Let me guess, you keep your glider rigged and in a hangar?

The trailer is pretty important when you rig/derig every flight.

The "trailer argument" has a lot to do with the budget involved. If you are looking at a fairly recent glider (say, from the 90s on) you are pretty sure to get a fairly decent Cobra or equivalent trailer with it. But if your wallet is a bit thinner and you are looking at G-102s, ASW-19s, Std Cirrus (Cirri?), etc, then the trailer can make a LOT of difference - A replacement could end up costing almost as much as the glider!

As in all advice given on RAS, it's worth every penny paid for...but there usually is a grain of truth buried in it somewhere.

Kirk
66