F15E/1941

Pete wrote:

"Bob Urz" wrote in message
...

I know similar scenarios were made into a movie.
But, if on Dec 1941 you had two strike eagles.
Only two. Your sortie arrived at the Japanese fleet
about the time 1/2 of the first wave was launched.

Question 1#
given the choice of any weaponry available for the F15,
(even some that may not be normally used)
what would your weapon load be? This is using all available hard points
and taking fuel out of the equation.


B61's, and as many AIM-9/AIM-120's we could carry.


Question #2
Given the choice of weapons above, what would your tactics be to
maximize damage to the carrier fleet and prevent as many planes
as possible from reaching Pearl. (while saving your own butt)


Vaporize the carriers, then chase down and destroy as many of the already
launched planes as we have missiles/20MM for.


Now there would have to be a balance between destroying the carriers
from future use and destroying the attacking planes that have already
left the carrier. Have it it. Hang as much on the plane as you can.
But when your out of munitions, what other tactics could you use?


Full AB to Pearl, land, taxi to the HQ building. A couple of full AB runups
should get the duty officers attention.

Pete


Although i agree the nukes are a "finisher", i was thinking more along
the lines of conventional weapons to make it more interesting.
Would a agm-65 be usable in this situation? laser guided bombs
certainly would.
Someone suggested a cluster bomb, but how would you target it on a
moving target?

And i believe the gun has 450 rounds capacity? That would not allow much
of a squirt per zero. And given the zero has superior low speed
maneuverability, how would you approach the gun shots?

Bob



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"Bob Urz" wrote

Although i agree the nukes are a "finisher", i was thinking more along
the lines of conventional weapons to make it more interesting.
Would a agm-65 be usable in this situation? laser guided bombs
certainly would.

At this point, all we need to do is kill the flight deck, and disable as
many unlaunched planes as we can.
AGM-65 is probably too small to be effective.
F-15E can carry 8x500 lb (GBU-12 or MK-82). Use those. 2 ea holes in the
flight deck would take it out of action.

Someone suggested a cluster bomb, but how would you target it on a
moving target?

It's not moving that fast. Targeting wouldn't be that hard (lead it a
little)
The bomblets would be enough to disable some/most of the aircraft on deck,
but maybe not enough to take the flight deck out of operation.


And i believe the gun has 450 rounds capacity? That would not allow much
of a squirt per zero. And given the zero has superior low speed
maneuverability, how would you approach the gun shots?

From behind. Pick them off one by one. If you're lucky, you'll get a few
before the guys in front notice. Once they DO notice, leave and call the
cavalry. You're vastly outnumbered. Notification is more important than
trying to get "just one more".

Pete
Knowing what we know now, I still maintain that with an unrestricted weapons
load, B61 is the only way to go.

"Pete" wrote in message
...

"Bob Urz" wrote

Although i agree the nukes are a "finisher", i was thinking more along
the lines of conventional weapons to make it more interesting.
Would a agm-65 be usable in this situation? laser guided bombs
certainly would.

At this point, all we need to do is kill the flight deck, and disable as
many unlaunched planes as we can.
AGM-65 is probably too small to be effective.
F-15E can carry 8x500 lb (GBU-12 or MK-82). Use those. 2 ea holes in the
flight deck would take it out of action.


Much too short sighted. You want to kill all of the Japanese CVs. Otherwise,
a few hours later, the deck is patched and they're back in operation. At the
worst, all six would be back in business for the battles of 1942. Since the
Japanese CVs weren't armored to speak of, a GBU-10 with a Mk-84 warhead
should be the basic CV ship-killer. Two F-15Es should nail all six CVs with
one bomb per and an extra pair as backup and coup d'gras. I'd nail all CVs
and then pull back to maximum endurance loiter and observe Japanese damage
control efforts. At Bingo, either donate the remaining ordnance to the CVs
in best shape or retire to one of the undamaged fields on Oahu and try and
talk the duty officer out of twenty thousand pounds of kerosene to go back
and finish the job. But that wouldn't be likely to succeed.

This is tough, because a single bomb is really marginal against a large
ship. If the magazines were the aimpoint (with Google handy so that the WSO
could look it up for each ship) then the chances of sinking with a single
bomb goes up. Otherwise, a hit aft could put all four screws and possibly
rudders out of service. The ships killed at Midway were caught with all
manner of munitions and avgas available to help things along because of the
conflict between finishing off the Midway garrison and killing the US
carriers. It's unlikely that the Pearl Harbor strike would be that sloppy.

On Mon, 31 May 2004 17:15:50 -0400, "Paul F Austin"
wrote:

This is tough, because a single bomb is really marginal against a large
ship. If the magazines were the aimpoint (with Google handy so that the WSO
could look it up for each ship) then the chances of sinking with a single
bomb goes up. Otherwise, a hit aft could put all four screws and possibly
rudders out of service. The ships killed at Midway were caught with all
manner of munitions and avgas available to help things along because of the
conflict between finishing off the Midway garrison and killing the US
carriers. It's unlikely that the Pearl Harbor strike would be that sloppy.

I'd put the initial LGB hit aft, so that it takes out the landing area
- almost as good as killing the CVs would be killing most of the Kido
Butai. After all the Japanese were distinctly average after their
seasoned pilots were lost.

Peter Kemp

"Paul F Austin" wrote

Much too short sighted. You want to kill all of the Japanese CVs.
Otherwise,
a few hours later, the deck is patched and they're back in operation.

A few hours later, you have gone to Pearl, and notified HQ of the deal.

At the
worst, all six would be back in business for the battles of 1942. Since
the
Japanese CVs weren't armored to speak of, a GBU-10 with a Mk-84 warhead
should be the basic CV ship-killer. Two F-15Es should nail all six CVs
with
one bomb per and an extra pair as backup and coup d'gras. I'd nail all CVs
and then pull back to maximum endurance loiter and observe Japanese damage
control efforts.

Remember, 1/2 the attack force is already on the way. You need to slow them
down as much as possible.

At Bingo, either donate the remaining ordnance to the CVs
in best shape or retire to one of the undamaged fields on Oahu and try and
talk the duty officer out of twenty thousand pounds of kerosene to go back
and finish the job. But that wouldn't be likely to succeed.

This is tough, because a single bomb is really marginal against a large
ship.

Which is why I thought 16 MK-82 vs 8 MK-84. Smaller warhead, yes, but more
hits.

The real question is, can 2 Strike Eagles sink all 6 carriers? Maybe, maybe
not. There are only two of you, with limited ordnance. Slow them down as
much as possible until you can shake things up at Pearl.

Pete

"Pete" wrote in message
...

"Paul F Austin" wrote

Much too short sighted. You want to kill all of the Japanese CVs.
Otherwise,
a few hours later, the deck is patched and they're back in operation.

A few hours later, you have gone to Pearl, and notified HQ of the deal.

At the
worst, all six would be back in business for the battles of 1942. Since
the
Japanese CVs weren't armored to speak of, a GBU-10 with a Mk-84 warhead
should be the basic CV ship-killer. Two F-15Es should nail all six CVs
with
one bomb per and an extra pair as backup and coup d'gras. I'd nail all
CVs
and then pull back to maximum endurance loiter and observe Japanese
damage
control efforts.

Remember, 1/2 the attack force is already on the way. You need to slow
them
down as much as possible.

At Bingo, either donate the remaining ordnance to the CVs
in best shape or retire to one of the undamaged fields on Oahu and try
and
talk the duty officer out of twenty thousand pounds of kerosene to go
back
and finish the job. But that wouldn't be likely to succeed.

This is tough, because a single bomb is really marginal against a large
ship.

Which is why I thought 16 MK-82 vs 8 MK-84. Smaller warhead, yes, but more
hits.

The real question is, can 2 Strike Eagles sink all 6 carriers? Maybe,
maybe
not. There are only two of you, with limited ordnance. Slow them down as
much as possible until you can shake things up at Pearl.

Let's be clear. Pearl is out of the picture. There's nothing two USAF
"rocket planes" can do to change the outcome there. You aren't going to
divert the first strike and you aren't going to go up through the duty
officer chain and back down in time to set Condition Zebra. You can stop the
launch of the second strike, prevent recovery of any of the aircraft already
lauched and possibly destroy the Japanese carrier force on the first day of
the war. That's worth shooting for even if you exchange the antique
battleline in Pearl to do it.

500 pound bombs aren't ship killers for ships that size. 2000 pound bombs
may be. After thinking about it, a hard target penetrator fuzed to go off
after exiting below the keel may be the most lethal way of attacking large
ships. The explosive fill makes a torpedo look small and there's a fair
chance of breaking the ship's back.

In message , Paul F Austin
writes
500 pound bombs aren't ship killers for ships that size. 2000 pound bombs
may be. After thinking about it, a hard target penetrator fuzed to go off
after exiting below the keel may be the most lethal way of attacking large
ships. The explosive fill makes a torpedo look small and there's a fair
chance of breaking the ship's back.

21" torpedo warheads ran around ~800lb of Torpex at the time (UK Mark
VIII - 640lb Torpex for the US Mark 14), which sounds competitive for
BLU-109/B (if a bit smaller than Mark 84)

That said, if you could get an under-keel detonation with any of those,
it will *hurt* a ship of that era.

--
He thinks too much: such men are dangerous.
Julius Caesar I:2

Paul J. Adam MainBoxatjrwlynch[dot]demon{dot}co(.)uk

"Paul J. Adam" wrote
Paul F Austin writes
500 pound bombs aren't ship killers for ships that size. 2000 pound bombs
may be. After thinking about it, a hard target penetrator fuzed to go off
after exiting below the keel may be the most lethal way of attacking
large
ships. The explosive fill makes a torpedo look small and there's a fair
chance of breaking the ship's back.

21" torpedo warheads ran around ~800lb of Torpex at the time (UK Mark
VIII - 640lb Torpex for the US Mark 14), which sounds competitive for
BLU-109/B (if a bit smaller than Mark 84)

That said, if you could get an under-keel detonation with any of those,
it will *hurt* a ship of that era.

You're right about the BLU-109 fill. Thanks for the correction. How does a
modern insensitive explosive fill compare to Torpex?

On Tue, 1 Jun 2004 11:04:51 +0100, "Paul J. Adam" wrote:

In message , Paul F Austin
writes
500 pound bombs aren't ship killers for ships that size. 2000 pound bombs
may be. After thinking about it, a hard target penetrator fuzed to go off
after exiting below the keel may be the most lethal way of attacking large
ships. The explosive fill makes a torpedo look small and there's a fair
chance of breaking the ship's back.

21" torpedo warheads ran around ~800lb of Torpex at the time (UK Mark
VIII - 640lb Torpex for the US Mark 14), which sounds competitive for
BLU-109/B (if a bit smaller than Mark 84)

That said, if you could get an under-keel detonation with any of those,
it will *hurt* a ship of that era.

One hit from a US Sub blew the Taiho sky high. The Japanese were
notorious for filling their ships with avgas fumes.

Al Minyard

"Pete" wrote in message ...
"Paul F Austin" wrote

Much too short sighted. You want to kill all of the Japanese CVs.
Otherwise,
a few hours later, the deck is patched and they're back in operation.

A few hours later, you have gone to Pearl, and notified HQ of the deal.

Where you are promptly arrested and shipped stateside on charges of
impersonating an officer of the US armed forces and for conducting an
unauthorised attack on a friendly nation(Japan wasnt at war at the
time you stuck the carriers) in an UFO with USAF markings. At the end
of the day you receive a letter of reprimend from FDR for wreaking his
awesome 'day of infamy' and 'unprovoked attack' speech he was
preparing for so long, for just such a day. You go down in history as
the mysterious madman who triggered war in the pacific by attacking
the peaceful, friendly japanese fleet who had been conducting freedom
of navigation excersices in the vicinity.


At the
worst, all six would be back in business for the battles of 1942. Since
the
Japanese CVs weren't armored to speak of, a GBU-10 with a Mk-84 warhead
should be the basic CV ship-killer. Two F-15Es should nail all six CVs
with
one bomb per and an extra pair as backup and coup d'gras. I'd nail all CVs
and then pull back to maximum endurance loiter and observe Japanese damage
control efforts.

Remember, 1/2 the attack force is already on the way. You need to slow them
down as much as possible.

At Bingo, either donate the remaining ordnance to the CVs
in best shape or retire to one of the undamaged fields on Oahu and try and
talk the duty officer out of twenty thousand pounds of kerosene to go back
and finish the job. But that wouldn't be likely to succeed.

This is tough, because a single bomb is really marginal against a large
ship.

Which is why I thought 16 MK-82 vs 8 MK-84. Smaller warhead, yes, but more
hits.

The real question is, can 2 Strike Eagles sink all 6 carriers? Maybe, maybe
not. There are only two of you, with limited ordnance. Slow them down as
much as possible until you can shake things up at Pearl.

Pete