Another glider crash?

On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 5:13:54 PM UTC-4, Ron Gleason wrote:
Saratoga NY, news report here

http://wnyt.com/article/stories/s391... dium=twitter

Look at the thread "the sweetest ASW20B on the planet"-check the cockpit pictures-I see the 3 almost identical orange handles very close to each other.
Great ASW 20 though !
Dan

wrote 2015/09/22 at 00:29:

On Sunday, September 20, 2015 at 5:13:54 PM UTC-4, Ron Gleason
wrote:
Saratoga NY, news report here

http://wnyt.com/article/stories/s391... dium=twitter


Look at the thread "the sweetest ASW20B on the planet"-check the
cockpit pictures-I see the 3 almost identical orange handles very
close to each other. Great ASW 20 though !

Dan, have a second look. Thei're wooden, and that's not stock.

Regards
Werner

I have watched two incidents of ASW15s ground effect flying across the
airfield with brakes shut and wheel going up and down. Quite amazing
performance!

An ASW15 pilot I once knew used to place a rubber band around the brake
handle. When he deployed the brake he thought "what's that rubber band
doing on the handle" and it reminded him to put the wheel down! A bit like
tying a knot in your tie.

I guess the converse is true. If it ain't got the rubber band on it then it
isn't the brake handle.

Discussing this incident yesterday at Moriarty, someone related the
story of an acquaintance who placed a tennis ball on the spoiler handle
when the gear was up. When he lowered the gear, he moved the ball to
the gear handle. Worked for him.

We also had a gear up landing the day before that discussion. The pilot
got low south of the field and was preparing to land on RWY 36. He got
a small thermal which boosted him to 300' AGL and decided to extend to
base for RWY 26. He told me he was thinking "Oh Boy! This is gonna be
my best landing ever!", and then hearing a scraping sound...

On 9/22/2015 4:15 AM, Jim White wrote:
I have watched two incidents of ASW15s ground effect flying across the
airfield with brakes shut and wheel going up and down. Quite amazing
performance!

An ASW15 pilot I once knew used to place a rubber band around the brake
handle. When he deployed the brake he thought "what's that rubber band
doing on the handle" and it reminded him to put the wheel down! A bit like
tying a knot in your tie.

I guess the converse is true. If it ain't got the rubber band on it then it
isn't the brake handle.


--
Dan, 5J

Edit: That was 700' AGL, not 300' AGL.

On 9/22/2015 7:18 AM, Dan Marotta wrote:
Discussing this incident yesterday at Moriarty, someone related the
story of an acquaintance who placed a tennis ball on the spoiler
handle when the gear was up. When he lowered the gear, he moved the
ball to the gear handle. Worked for him.

We also had a gear up landing the day before that discussion. The
pilot got low south of the field and was preparing to land on RWY 36.
He got a small thermal which boosted him to 300' AGL and decided to
extend to base for RWY 26. He told me he was thinking "Oh Boy! This
is gonna be my best landing ever!", and then hearing a scraping sound...

On 9/22/2015 4:15 AM, Jim White wrote:
I have watched two incidents of ASW15s ground effect flying across the
airfield with brakes shut and wheel going up and down. Quite amazing
performance!

An ASW15 pilot I once knew used to place a rubber band around the brake
handle. When he deployed the brake he thought "what's that rubber band
doing on the handle" and it reminded him to put the wheel down! A bit like
tying a knot in your tie.

I guess the converse is true. If it ain't got the rubber band on it then it
isn't the brake handle.


--
Dan, 5J

--
Dan, 5J

We also had a gear up landing the day before that discussion. The pilot got
low south of the field and was preparing to land on RWY 36. He got a small
thermal which boosted him to 300' AGL and decided to extend to base for RWY
26. He told me he was thinking "Oh Boy! This is gonna be my best landing
ever!", and then hearing a scraping sound...

I have watched two incidents of ASW15s ground effect flying across the
airfield with brakes shut and wheel going up and down. Quite amazing
performance!

An ASW15 pilot I once knew used to place a rubber band around the brake
handle. When he deployed the brake he thought "what's that rubber band
doing on the handle" and it reminded him to put the wheel down! A bit like
tying a knot in your tie.

1) Every place at which I've ever taken instruction or "BFR" (a U.S. thing)
has taught the "visual spoiler check" as part of the pattern checklist, so I
kinda hoped it was "the standard" throughout the U.S. (a country of
unrepentant individualists). Evidently not?

2) Having heard it was possible (as in people had done it already) to confuse
handles (e.g. typically, gear for spoilers), I believed; the proposition
seemed plausible. Upon crossing over to the dark side of large-deflection
landing flaps instead of spoilers, I still believed it was plausible, but
another part of my brain simultaneously concluded it was unlikely, given the
"unmistakably differing" effects of flap vs. spoiler deployment. Nonetheless,
I seem to remember a retractable-gear 1-35 crunch that *may* have involved
handle confusion, despite the 1-35's "unmistakably/ergonomically conflicting"
flap/gear handles/actuation. If it happens it must be possible has long been
one of my personal maxims. :-)

3) The gear-up scenario above may well be THE number one reason for glider
gear-ups, i.e. focus on "something else" to the detriment of Joe Pilot's
routine procedures. The very first time I "stretched a glide" back to the
pattern in a retractable gear glider, about the time I concluded I was "good
for at least a straight-in" I also ran my pattern checklist (at ~300' agl).
Yup. I'd completely forgotten about the gear to that point. Talk about shock
and alarm!

Points being, those simple things your instructor (so it's hoped) taught you
about checklists and verifying one's actions, aren't only based on others'
prior mistakes, but they *work!*

Bob - no gear-ups or handle confusions yet - W.

Visually checking both spoilers as part of the pre-landing check was drilled into me when I was being trained in the 1980s and I have never landed a glider since then without doing this. The reason is not only to check that you have the proper handle but also that they deploy symmetrically. In unflapped ships, I was also taught to keep my hand on the dive brake lever until safely on the ground.

I have witnessed two cases of mistaken handles - one in which a flapped two-seater flew the entire length of the strip with its flaps waggling instead of dive brakes.

Mike

A few years ago I had to do an 8-mile straight in approach in the rain
and against traffic. It's a completely different story of how I got
into that position. :-[ . Anyway, I called straight in from 5 miles and
announced that my gear would remain up due to my low energy state. I
continued making periodic calls with the gear statement and added that I
would lower the gear when I got over the pavement. Keeping the gear up
got me to the runway and making the calls reinforced the need to put it
down as soon as I crossed the threshold.

Still haven't scraped the belly and plan not to...

On 9/22/2015 8:05 AM, BobW wrote:
We also had a gear up landing the day before that discussion. The
pilot got
low south of the field and was preparing to land on RWY 36. He got a
small
thermal which boosted him to 300' AGL and decided to extend to base
for RWY
26. He told me he was thinking "Oh Boy! This is gonna be my best
landing
ever!", and then hearing a scraping sound...

I have watched two incidents of ASW15s ground effect flying across the
airfield with brakes shut and wheel going up and down. Quite amazing
performance!

An ASW15 pilot I once knew used to place a rubber band around the brake
handle. When he deployed the brake he thought "what's that rubber band
doing on the handle" and it reminded him to put the wheel down! A
bit like
tying a knot in your tie.

1) Every place at which I've ever taken instruction or "BFR" (a U.S.
thing) has taught the "visual spoiler check" as part of the pattern
checklist, so I kinda hoped it was "the standard" throughout the U.S.
(a country of unrepentant individualists). Evidently not?

2) Having heard it was possible (as in people had done it already) to
confuse handles (e.g. typically, gear for spoilers), I believed; the
proposition seemed plausible. Upon crossing over to the dark side of
large-deflection landing flaps instead of spoilers, I still believed
it was plausible, but another part of my brain simultaneously
concluded it was unlikely, given the "unmistakably differing" effects
of flap vs. spoiler deployment. Nonetheless, I seem to remember a
retractable-gear 1-35 crunch that *may* have involved handle
confusion, despite the 1-35's "unmistakably/ergonomically conflicting"
flap/gear handles/actuation. If it happens it must be possible has
long been one of my personal maxims. :-)

3) The gear-up scenario above may well be THE number one reason for
glider gear-ups, i.e. focus on "something else" to the detriment of
Joe Pilot's routine procedures. The very first time I "stretched a
glide" back to the pattern in a retractable gear glider, about the
time I concluded I was "good for at least a straight-in" I also ran my
pattern checklist (at ~300' agl). Yup. I'd completely forgotten about
the gear to that point. Talk about shock and alarm!

Points being, those simple things your instructor (so it's hoped)
taught you about checklists and verifying one's actions, aren't only
based on others' prior mistakes, but they *work!*

Bob - no gear-ups or handle confusions yet - W.


--
Dan, 5J

I noticed the same thing when taking the photos and video of th 20. See the thread for the video (early in video are many shots of the cockpit). It does seem like the handles are close together.

Great glider regardless.

I suppose we should be fitting different handles but most importantly, training pilots to have a procedure to ensure they are double checking the control reaction (looking at the spoilers for example) and visual handle location of their hand on the handle every time. Not an easy task.

Sean