Standardization in Slack Rope Recovery?

As a non-owner pilot, I have had my share of critiques from checkout instructors when asked to perform PTS-style maneuvers. my goal now is not to perform the maneuver correctly, but to please the CFI and make him feel like he's the most excellent CFI in the world. so before performing the maneuver, I ask how he wants it to be performed, and do it how he wants it. sad but true, its the best way to get through a checkout. --bob


On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 9:29:23 AM UTC-5, LongJourney wrote:
Most of us have had the inevitable frustration of being told to do something one way with one instructor, only to be told to do it differently when flying with another instructor. There are, of course, multiple ways of performing certain maneuvers, and slack rope recovery is one of those. I would like to hear feedback from the instructors here about which method they use, and why?

My personal experience of flying ASK-21s with instructors is that holding yaw until the slack comes out and continuing to hold yaw until the glider is back behind the tow plane works best for me. The air cushions the shock of the rope coming taut as the nose of the glider is pulled sideways through it. Holding yaw prevents a secondary loop of slack occurring. This method also worked well in my Libelle.

The other typical method of slack rope recovery is to yaw away until just before the slack is out and then diving toward the rope in an effort to more closely match the tow plane's speed. In my experience, this method is difficult to do well consistently, and often results in a secondary loop of slack.


Any comments?

Thanks,

Jeff

On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 8:28:58 AM UTC-7, Bob Pasker wrote:
Bob Pasker,
I think you are missing the point the original poster was asking about. Each instructor may have a point they are trying to get across. We can probably all say that we have learned something from just about every CFIG we have flown with. I would also say that I have seen tow pilots do some interesting things and my recovery will depend on what the towplane is doing, whether I am high or low, what type of ship I am in, etc.. Why would you "Not perform the maneuver correctly" during a checkout? Please post and tell us some of the "Incorrect" slack recoveries you have been taught.
Thanks

Slack line needs to be controlled by the glider pilot, varying methods apply. Match tow direction, match tow speed, use drag devices (yaw, spoilers) as needed. Do not over run the tow plane and do not get entangled in the rope. If you chose to release make sure you are not in a position to get smacked by the tow ring.

The idea is a slow reduction of the slack loop, need to match the tow plane speed and he is now accelerating without the glider drag, adding to the problem.

Not all gliders have nose tow or tost connections. Can't always rely on the rope pulling the nose sideways to buffer the tension in the rope.
Why put a side load on a Schweizer style hook. Slack coming out slow, ok. Line coming out fast, not so good. That tension and shock of the line becoming taught should go down the longitudinal axis of the glider, plus the tension has a bungee effect with most ropes. Schweizer gliders with the hook on the chin will pull the nose up.

CG hooks and additional issues. Most pilots will graduate to single seat gliders with no instructor to help. Train for the single seat glass. First learned is what is remembered in a panic. Large slack loops on CG, it could back release from the rope drag, are you in a position to not get smacked by the ring?

Nose pointed away from the tow plane when it comes tight, you can't match tow speed and direction that way, and when the line comes tight the rope has to move the whole glider sideways "through the yaw", not just nose tension.. Greater chance of a rope break, and with increased tension the glider will accelerate in the direction it is pointing. Not pointing towards tow? You're headed off accelerating on a tangent to the direction of tow.

Big problem I have with students and a slack line, normally the glider is out of position off to the side and they want to get back behind the tow plane. Now the big loop is below the nose where they cannot see it or judge how quickly the loop is shrinking if at all. How are you to manage that?

I had one student get us into a bad situation in a hurry with a naturally created slack line in turbulence in a turn. Not instructor induced.
My recovery was "MY GLIDER!", turned inside the turn, got a wing up over the loop, with a big loop I could see going horizontal back to the tow plane.
Pull the release and tighten the turn away from tow. The line and ring goes away from us and does not snap back towards us.

Bottom line, I vote for controlling the loop and slow recovery, don't rush it. Match the direction and speed of tow as it comes out. Cannot always rely on yaw, nose hooks, to control the bungee effect. Can't match speed if you are pointed away from tow. Keep the rope where you can see it. If it goes bad in a hurry, control when you decide to release so you don't get smacked by the ring.

BillT

On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 6:35:59 PM UTC-6, Bill T wrote:
Slack line needs to be controlled by the glider pilot, varying methods apply. Match tow direction, match tow speed, use drag devices (yaw, spoilers) as needed. Do not over run the tow plane and do not get entangled in the rope. If you chose to release make sure you are not in a position to get smacked by the tow ring.

The idea is a slow reduction of the slack loop, need to match the tow plane speed and he is now accelerating without the glider drag, adding to the problem.

Not all gliders have nose tow or tost connections. Can't always rely on the rope pulling the nose sideways to buffer the tension in the rope.
Why put a side load on a Schweizer style hook. Slack coming out slow, ok. Line coming out fast, not so good. That tension and shock of the line becoming taught should go down the longitudinal axis of the glider, plus the tension has a bungee effect with most ropes. Schweizer gliders with the hook on the chin will pull the nose up.

CG hooks and additional issues. Most pilots will graduate to single seat gliders with no instructor to help. Train for the single seat glass. First learned is what is remembered in a panic. Large slack loops on CG, it could back release from the rope drag, are you in a position to not get smacked by the ring?

Nose pointed away from the tow plane when it comes tight, you can't match tow speed and direction that way, and when the line comes tight the rope has to move the whole glider sideways "through the yaw", not just nose tension. Greater chance of a rope break, and with increased tension the glider will accelerate in the direction it is pointing. Not pointing towards tow? You're headed off accelerating on a tangent to the direction of tow.

Big problem I have with students and a slack line, normally the glider is out of position off to the side and they want to get back behind the tow plane. Now the big loop is below the nose where they cannot see it or judge how quickly the loop is shrinking if at all. How are you to manage that?

I had one student get us into a bad situation in a hurry with a naturally created slack line in turbulence in a turn. Not instructor induced.
My recovery was "MY GLIDER!", turned inside the turn, got a wing up over the loop, with a big loop I could see going horizontal back to the tow plane.
Pull the release and tighten the turn away from tow. The line and ring goes away from us and does not snap back towards us.

Bottom line, I vote for controlling the loop and slow recovery, don't rush it. Match the direction and speed of tow as it comes out. Cannot always rely on yaw, nose hooks, to control the bungee effect. Can't match speed if you are pointed away from tow. Keep the rope where you can see it. If it goes bad in a hurry, control when you decide to release so you don't get smacked by the ring.

BillT

One argument that I really don't understand is why would there be less chance of breaking the tow line when ALL of the force is applied to the tow line, which is the case when pointing the nose at the tow plane's tail, than when the blow is cushioned by the air when the nose is pulled through it?

I flew with an instructor a few months ago who asked me to use the "point the nose at the tow plane" method of slack line recovery. The result was a large jolt and a secondary loop of slack. I said, "Let's try it my way." I yawed away and held it until we had been pulled back behind the tow plane. The result was a gentle jolt when the line came taut, and no secondary loop of slack. The instructor was quiet for a moment, then said, "Okay, we'll do it your way."

On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 9:30:10 AM UTC-5, LongJourney wrote:
On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 6:35:59 PM UTC-6, Bill T wrote:
Slack line needs to be controlled by the glider pilot, varying methods apply. Match tow direction, match tow speed, use drag devices (yaw, spoilers) as needed. Do not over run the tow plane and do not get entangled in the rope. If you chose to release make sure you are not in a position to get smacked by the tow ring.

The idea is a slow reduction of the slack loop, need to match the tow plane speed and he is now accelerating without the glider drag, adding to the problem.

Not all gliders have nose tow or tost connections. Can't always rely on the rope pulling the nose sideways to buffer the tension in the rope.
Why put a side load on a Schweizer style hook. Slack coming out slow, ok. Line coming out fast, not so good. That tension and shock of the line becoming taught should go down the longitudinal axis of the glider, plus the tension has a bungee effect with most ropes. Schweizer gliders with the hook on the chin will pull the nose up.

CG hooks and additional issues. Most pilots will graduate to single seat gliders with no instructor to help. Train for the single seat glass. First learned is what is remembered in a panic. Large slack loops on CG, it could back release from the rope drag, are you in a position to not get smacked by the ring?

Nose pointed away from the tow plane when it comes tight, you can't match tow speed and direction that way, and when the line comes tight the rope has to move the whole glider sideways "through the yaw", not just nose tension. Greater chance of a rope break, and with increased tension the glider will accelerate in the direction it is pointing. Not pointing towards tow? You're headed off accelerating on a tangent to the direction of tow.

Big problem I have with students and a slack line, normally the glider is out of position off to the side and they want to get back behind the tow plane. Now the big loop is below the nose where they cannot see it or judge how quickly the loop is shrinking if at all. How are you to manage that?

I had one student get us into a bad situation in a hurry with a naturally created slack line in turbulence in a turn. Not instructor induced.
My recovery was "MY GLIDER!", turned inside the turn, got a wing up over the loop, with a big loop I could see going horizontal back to the tow plane.
Pull the release and tighten the turn away from tow. The line and ring goes away from us and does not snap back towards us.

Bottom line, I vote for controlling the loop and slow recovery, don't rush it. Match the direction and speed of tow as it comes out. Cannot always rely on yaw, nose hooks, to control the bungee effect. Can't match speed if you are pointed away from tow. Keep the rope where you can see it. If it goes bad in a hurry, control when you decide to release so you don't get smacked by the ring.

BillT

One argument that I really don't understand is why would there be less chance of breaking the tow line when ALL of the force is applied to the tow line, which is the case when pointing the nose at the tow plane's tail, than when the blow is cushioned by the air when the nose is pulled through it?

I flew with an instructor a few months ago who asked me to use the "point the nose at the tow plane" method of slack line recovery. The result was a large jolt and a secondary loop of slack. I said, "Let's try it my way." I yawed away and held it until we had been pulled back behind the tow plane. The result was a gentle jolt when the line came taut, and no secondary loop of slack. The instructor was quiet for a moment, then said, "Okay, we'll do it your way."

I agree with you and it is what I was taught (yaw away from the slack).
Granted, a 2-33 has a lot more side area to help soften the shock when the slack comes out (compared to a single seat glass ship), but remember the TOWPLANE also has significant side area.
Thus, when the slack comes out, you have two aircraft pivoting sideways to remove the shock, not just one.
When the rope is taut (slack has come out), both aircraft are basically aligned and the rudder correction can be removed on the glider end.

While it may be helpful to understand what the examiner/instructor wants to see (as mentioned earlier), I think a "gentle nudge" using the yaw method would be worthwhile if they're looking for something else.

PS, as with anything, even doing the correct "method" can go wrong if over-done or done incorrectly.

One argument that I really don't understand is why would there be less chance of breaking the tow line when ALL of the force is applied to the tow line, which is the case when pointing the nose at the tow plane's tail, than when the blow is cushioned by the air when the nose is pulled through it?

I don't think that that is a valid argument at all... If properly executed, pointing at the tow plane will be a cleaner, smoother recovery.

I would put it akin to British automobiles (my first car was a '78 spitfire). When everything is going correctly, it is smooth and elegant. When something in the process breaks, the whole thing can get wonky in a hurry.

Chris

good catch

I should have said that I am "less interested in performing the maneuver the way I was taught and the way I did it on my checkride, than I am in pleasing the CFI"


On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 12:36:02 PM UTC-5, K m wrote:
On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 8:28:58 AM UTC-7, Bob Pasker wrote:
Bob Pasker,
Why would you "Not perform the maneuver correctly" during a checkout? Please post and tell us some of the "Incorrect" slack recoveries you have been taught.
Thanks

good catch

I should have said that I was "less interested in performing the maneuver the way I was taught and the way I did it on my checkride, than I am in pleasing the CFI"

and as you can read from further posts, there are many (correct) methods for eliminating slack. they key is to figure out which one the CFI wants on the checkout.

On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 12:36:02 PM UTC-5, K m wrote:
On Sunday, January 31, 2016 at 8:28:58 AM UTC-7, Bob Pasker wrote:
Bob Pasker,
Why would you "Not perform the maneuver correctly" during a checkout? Please post and tell us some of the "Incorrect" slack recoveries you have been taught.
Thanks

On Monday, February 1, 2016 at 10:08:52 AM UTC-5, Bob Pasker wrote:
good catch

I should have said that I was "less interested in performing the maneuver the way I was taught and the way I did it on my checkride, than I am in pleasing the CFI"

I question your deference to the CFI.

I'd be much more interested in practicing the maneuver the way I always practiced the maneuver (yaw slightly away from the slack). Removing slack is something that I do without thinking about it and if I had the opportunity to practice with 'deliberate slack rope', I'd profit by reinforcing my 'muscle memory'.

Learning the CFI's unfamiliar way of removing slack is counter-productive, especially if it means risking the possibility of a second loop from doing something improperly. What is the point?

So it seems best to resolve on the ground what techniques I'm going to use in the air. If the CFI wants me to do it differently, then he'd have to convince me that the way I was taught to do something was dangerous. If he were inflexible and insisted on doing things his way, I might opt out of getting in the glider with him. If we can't get along on the ground, then I should not fly with him.

I've flown with many CFIs. I'm grateful to all of them. Only one was rigid, inflexible, and unable to carry on a conversation that deviated from his shop worn script. In retrospect, I should have opted out of flying with him.

After we've been flying on our own for a
while, slack rope situations become very
rare (except on Condor with which I am
getting through a problematic
introduction).

Instructors of course encounter slack rope
situations more frequently with
magnitudes where many of us would have
yanked long before. Flying a CG hook my
hand is always on the release during tow.

My bigger concern is instructors that want
to see a fully developed spin before
recovery. That builds a muscle memory
that will have you smacking the ground if
you get an incipient in the circuit.

I have a thankfully very short list of
instructors I will not fly with.

The latest addition said some years ago
there was some unidentifiable concern he
"could not put [his] finger on".