Spitfire Controls

In article , N329DF
writes
It is very easy to fly, for me even more comfortable than a stick. I can't say
about in combat, but I have flown in Tiger Moth, Harvard Mk.II and Spitfire TR
IX,

Nice!

and all had circle control sticks.
Matt Gunsch,
A&P,IA,Private Pilot
Riding member of the
2003 world champion drill team
Arizona Precision Motorcycle Drill Team
GWRRA,NRA,GOA


At one point, RAF fighter pilots were advised to keep both hands on the
control column while firing - a spade handle made this easy, as was
applying a lot of control force when necessary. Plus it was
ambidextrous (did I spell that ok?) and easy to swap hands quickly
without having to overlap fingers (and trapping glove leather; very
annoying...). It also made it very easy to operate a stick-mounted
brake handle as this could be mounted to pivot side-to-side rather than
front-to-back - very natural to the fingers.

All in all, I wonder why we stopped using them - didn't look flash
enough for the export market I suppose...

By way of comparison I have an early Harrier control column handle. It
is ergonomic hell - hard to reach some controls and difficult to use
without pressing things you don't want to press.

On a trivial point, I have a 30 year old US-made screwdriver which has a
spherical handle and can thus be gripped with the whole hand - it is a
dream to use compared to the straight and/or or pistol-grip types - you
can really apply torque and pressure in comfort. Suspect the spade
handle shared some of these ergonomic characteristics.

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

On a trivial point, I have a 30 year old US-made screwdriver which has a
spherical handle and can thus be gripped with the whole hand - it is a
dream to use compared to the straight and/or or pistol-grip types -

I inherited one of these from my father, though spherical is not how I
would describe the handle. More an elongated oval, made of wood, with
a metal top to defend it from the inevitable carpenter who would use
it as a chisel.

It was older than 30 years, however. My father bought his tools in the
late 1930s / early 1940s. My son-in-law still uses some of them.

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org

In article , Cub Driver
writes

On a trivial point, I have a 30 year old US-made screwdriver which has a
spherical handle and can thus be gripped with the whole hand - it is a
dream to use compared to the straight and/or or pistol-grip types -

I inherited one of these from my father, though spherical is not how I
would describe the handle. More an elongated oval, made of wood, with
a metal top to defend it from the inevitable carpenter who would use
it as a chisel.

This one was a modern plastic type with ratchet and interchangeable tips
- must have been an early one to feature these.

It was older than 30 years, however. My father bought his tools in the
late 1930s / early 1940s. My son-in-law still uses some of them.

My uncle left me a tool chest full of woodworking gear - I may get
around to doing a bit of whittling sometime...carve a couple of those
big scale model P-51s and Spitfires...

all the best -- Dan Ford
email: (put Cubdriver in subject line)

The Warbird's Forum www.warbirdforum.com
The Piper Cub Forum www.pipercubforum.com
Viva Bush! www.vivabush.org

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

I laughed out loud at your decription of the Harrier stick. It took a few
minutes for me to figure out how to hold the bloomin' thing when I first saw
it. Over time I came to love flying the jet even with all its British
peculiarities (among the others -- pushbuttons for "undercarriage" extension
and retraction).

I too wondered about the circle thing watching "B.O.B." the other night.
Seems its just something one got used to over time.

"Dave Eadsforth" wrote in message
...
In article , N329DF
writes
It is very easy to fly, for me even more comfortable than a stick. I
can't say
about in combat, but I have flown in Tiger Moth, Harvard Mk.II and
Spitfire TR
IX,

Nice!

and all had circle control sticks.
Matt Gunsch,
A&P,IA,Private Pilot
Riding member of the
2003 world champion drill team
Arizona Precision Motorcycle Drill Team
GWRRA,NRA,GOA


At one point, RAF fighter pilots were advised to keep both hands on the
control column while firing - a spade handle made this easy, as was
applying a lot of control force when necessary. Plus it was
ambidextrous (did I spell that ok?) and easy to swap hands quickly
without having to overlap fingers (and trapping glove leather; very
annoying...). It also made it very easy to operate a stick-mounted
brake handle as this could be mounted to pivot side-to-side rather than
front-to-back - very natural to the fingers.

All in all, I wonder why we stopped using them - didn't look flash
enough for the export market I suppose...

By way of comparison I have an early Harrier control column handle. It
is ergonomic hell - hard to reach some controls and difficult to use
without pressing things you don't want to press.

On a trivial point, I have a 30 year old US-made screwdriver which has a
spherical handle and can thus be gripped with the whole hand - it is a
dream to use compared to the straight and/or or pistol-grip types - you
can really apply torque and pressure in comfort. Suspect the spade
handle shared some of these ergonomic characteristics.

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

In article et,
Frijoles writes
I laughed out loud at your decription of the Harrier stick. It took a few
minutes for me to figure out how to hold the bloomin' thing when I first saw
it.

An octopus would probably get on okay with it...

Over time I came to love flying the jet even with all its British
peculiarities (among the others -- pushbuttons for "undercarriage" extension
and retraction).

The early Spitfires featured a lever that moved 90 degrees to operate
the undercarriage hydraulics, but it invited disaster. The lever had to
be swung downwards and then it would automatically snap itself back into
the locking notch. The pilot had to resist the temptation to help the
lever back into the locking notch as this cut off the hydraulic pressure
while the wheels were still coming down. Quite a few novices did try to
land with wheels hardly out of the housings.

So the buttons are there to make things simple!

I too wondered about the circle thing watching "B.O.B." the other night.
Seems its just something one got used to over time.

SNIP old stuff

A fellow air cadet and I raided a fire dump when staying at an RAF
station (MANY years ago). We got the control column tops out of a
Meteor trainer destined for fire practice - I got the 'modern' handle
and my pal got the WWII spade grip. Wish we'd done it the other way
around now...

Cheers,

Dave

--
Dave Eadsforth

Dave Eadsforth wrote:

In article et,
Frijoles writes

snip

I too wondered about the circle thing watching "B.O.B." the other night.
Seems its just something one got used to over time.

SNIP old stuff

A fellow air cadet and I raided a fire dump when staying at an RAF
station (MANY years ago). We got the control column tops out of a
Meteor trainer destined for fire practice - I got the 'modern' handle
and my pal got the WWII spade grip. Wish we'd done it the other way
around now...

Which reminds me -- the spade grip was pretty much SOP for RAF fighters during
WW2. Anyone know which a/c first dispensed with it and went with a standard
sticktop? I know the Hunter had a regular top, although it too was pivoted about
halfway down to avoid the "hitting the knee" problems that Pete mentioned. OTOH
it had powered controls, so brute force wasn't an issue, and they could have
geared the stick throw however they wanted. Anyone know what the Meteor and
Vampire used? IIRR the latter had the hand-operated brake lever, so probably had
the spade grip.

Guy

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 07:53:54 GMT, Guy Alcala
wrote:

Which reminds me -- the spade grip was pretty much SOP for RAF fighters during
WW2. Anyone know which a/c first dispensed with it and went with a standard
sticktop? I know the Hunter had a regular top, although it too was pivoted about
halfway down to avoid the "hitting the knee" problems that Pete mentioned. OTOH
it had powered controls, so brute force wasn't an issue, and they could have
geared the stick throw however they wanted. Anyone know what the Meteor and
Vampire used? IIRR the latter had the hand-operated brake lever, so probably had
the spade grip.

Yup, the Vampires (at least up to the FB.5) had the spade grip
according to the pilot's notes I've seen.

Gavin Bailey

--

Apply three phase AC 415V direct to MB. This work real good. How you know, you
ask? Simple, chip get real HOT. System not work, but no can tell from this.
Exactly same as before. Do it now. - Bart Kwan En

Presidente Alcazar wrote:

On Tue, 15 Jun 2004 07:53:54 GMT, Guy Alcala
wrote:

Which reminds me -- the spade grip was pretty much SOP for RAF fighters during
WW2. Anyone know which a/c first dispensed with it and went with a standard
sticktop? I know the Hunter had a regular top, although it too was pivoted about
halfway down to avoid the "hitting the knee" problems that Pete mentioned. OTOH
it had powered controls, so brute force wasn't an issue, and they could have
geared the stick throw however they wanted. Anyone know what the Meteor and
Vampire used? IIRR the latter had the hand-operated brake lever, so probably had
the spade grip.

Yup, the Vampires (at least up to the FB.5) had the spade grip
according to the pilot's notes I've seen.

Given the photo of the T.11 Pete provided, and the pilot's notes you've seen, it
occurs to me that the standard stick stop would have had to replace the spade grip
when ejection seats came in. IIRR single-seat Vamps and (I think) early Meteors
didn't have ejection seats. A spade grip would presumably interfere more with the
ejection path, and who wants to lose a leg at the knee if they don't have to?

Guy

In article ,
Guy Alcala writes:
Dave Eadsforth wrote:

In article et,
Frijoles writes

snip

I too wondered about the circle thing watching "B.O.B." the other night.
Seems its just something one got used to over time.

SNIP old stuff

A fellow air cadet and I raided a fire dump when staying at an RAF
station (MANY years ago). We got the control column tops out of a
Meteor trainer destined for fire practice - I got the 'modern' handle
and my pal got the WWII spade grip. Wish we'd done it the other way
around now...

Which reminds me -- the spade grip was pretty much SOP for RAF fighters during
WW2. Anyone know which a/c first dispensed with it and went with a standard
sticktop? I know the Hunter had a regular top, although it too was pivoted about
halfway down to avoid the "hitting the knee" problems that Pete mentioned. OTOH
it had powered controls, so brute force wasn't an issue, and they could have
geared the stick throw however they wanted. Anyone know what the Meteor and
Vampire used? IIRR the latter had the hand-operated brake lever, so probably had
the spade grip.

The Vampire, at least the T.11/T.35 most definitely has a regular
stick grip. The brake lever sits in front, sort of like that of a
bicycle. (It's not as comfortable as teh grip on a T-33, though -
just a straight handle.

Here's a pictu (watch the wrap)
http://www.airmuseumsuk.org/dhaircra...%20cockpit.htm


--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster

In article ,
Guy Alcala writes:
Dave Eadsforth wrote:

In article et,
Frijoles writes

snip

I too wondered about the circle thing watching "B.O.B." the other night.
Seems its just something one got used to over time.

SNIP old stuff

A fellow air cadet and I raided a fire dump when staying at an RAF
station (MANY years ago). We got the control column tops out of a
Meteor trainer destined for fire practice - I got the 'modern' handle
and my pal got the WWII spade grip. Wish we'd done it the other way
around now...

Which reminds me -- the spade grip was pretty much SOP for RAF fighters during
WW2. Anyone know which a/c first dispensed with it and went with a standard
sticktop? I know the Hunter had a regular top, although it too was pivoted about
halfway down to avoid the "hitting the knee" problems that Pete mentioned. OTOH
it had powered controls, so brute force wasn't an issue, and they could have
geared the stick throw however they wanted. Anyone know what the Meteor and
Vampire used? IIRR the latter had the hand-operated brake lever, so probably had
the spade grip.

Emergency Followup - in my haste, I gave teh URL for the wrong cockpit
image. That's a DH Queen Bee (Basically a radio controlled Tiger
Moth).

This is the Vampi
http://www.airmuseumsuk.org/dhaircra...%20cockpit.htm




--
Pete Stickney
A strong conviction that something must be done is the parent of many
bad measures. -- Daniel Webster