ADS-B why

On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 12:20:26 PM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
I have a PowerFlarm and transponder. Ninety percent of my flying is from the Southern Cal operating areas up through the Sierras and typical operating area out of Minden. So while I do pass through a few more trafficked areas, (Cajon& Banning Pass, Tahoe, Reno...etc) the majority of my flight time is with other gliders. I perfectly see transponder equipped and Flarm equipped gliders, why would I want to add the capability of ADS-B out?

If I was regularly operating in LA class B airspace I can see why I would want all the help and broadcast, but for gliders not typically operating in high traffic airspace why the extra cost, space and battery drain?

Flying in the Reno/Tahoe area, it would give Norcal Approach better information. With a transponder only, they are trying to guess what you are doing, often gliders are not moving fast enough to be able to tell on ATC radar. I know this from listening to them. The subtext of these conversations is "there's a glider there wandering around, got no idea what the hell he's doing". With ADS-B out, they would have a much better idea, though they would need to get used to thermalling behavour.

ATC is going to say that about anyone not in radio contact with them, regardless of if you have a primary target only, mode c, or adsb out.

Yaaas... They do like to think they're in control. After all,
"controller" is in their job title.

On 1/8/2017 11:15 AM, Tony wrote:
ATC is going to say that about anyone not in radio contact with them, regardless of if you have a primary target only, mode c, or adsb out.

--
Dan, 5J

On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 10:15:40 AM UTC-8, Tony wrote:
ATC is going to say that about anyone not in radio contact with them, regardless of if you have a primary target only, mode c, or adsb out.

Funny then, that they don't talk like that about other, not-in-contact, GA aircraft transiting the area.

I assumed that was because the GA aircraft was traveling faster, in a more or less straight line, leaving a nice streak on their screen. This is also what NorCal have said in talks with local clubs.

Whether a glider with ADSB out would change things I don't know - there are none in our area so far as I am aware.

On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 9:44:24 AM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 12:20:26 PM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
I have a PowerFlarm and transponder. Ninety percent of my flying is from the Southern Cal operating areas up through the Sierras and typical operating area out of Minden. So while I do pass through a few more trafficked areas, (Cajon& Banning Pass, Tahoe, Reno...etc) the majority of my flight time is with other gliders. I perfectly see transponder equipped and Flarm equipped gliders, why would I want to add the capability of ADS-B out?

If I was regularly operating in LA class B airspace I can see why I would want all the help and broadcast, but for gliders not typically operating in high traffic airspace why the extra cost, space and battery drain?

Flying in the Reno/Tahoe area, it would give Norcal Approach better information. With a transponder only, they are trying to guess what you are doing, often gliders are not moving fast enough to be able to tell on ATC radar.. I know this from listening to them. The subtext of these conversations is "there's a glider there wandering around, got no idea what the hell he's doing". With ADS-B out, they would have a much better idea, though they would need to get used to thermalling behavour.

Actually, my experience with NorCal Approach was different. Last Sep 2016 while flying up from Inyokern to Reno, I stopped in a 17.5k msl climb thermal just SE of Carson City. While monitoring NorCal frequency, I inadvertently made a call to my friend Jim Staniforth, thinking I was on 123.3. To my surprise, the NorCal controller called back, identifying me as "Glider N53LK" just as if I was in flight following. He asked me to ident (Trig 22 transponder on code 1202) which I did. Trained and observant controllers already know we are gliders... and with Mode S they have our ID and N-number right on their display (at least this controller did). I was pleasantly surprised ... and pleased... to know that ATC was watching. That makes my purchase and install of the Trig Mode S transponder very worthwhile.

Walt Rogers WX

On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 4:49:20 PM UTC-8, WaltWX wrote:
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 9:44:24 AM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 12:20:26 PM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
I have a PowerFlarm and transponder. Ninety percent of my flying is from the Southern Cal operating areas up through the Sierras and typical operating area out of Minden. So while I do pass through a few more trafficked areas, (Cajon& Banning Pass, Tahoe, Reno...etc) the majority of my flight time is with other gliders. I perfectly see transponder equipped and Flarm equipped gliders, why would I want to add the capability of ADS-B out?

If I was regularly operating in LA class B airspace I can see why I would want all the help and broadcast, but for gliders not typically operating in high traffic airspace why the extra cost, space and battery drain?

Flying in the Reno/Tahoe area, it would give Norcal Approach better information. With a transponder only, they are trying to guess what you are doing, often gliders are not moving fast enough to be able to tell on ATC radar. I know this from listening to them. The subtext of these conversations is "there's a glider there wandering around, got no idea what the hell he's doing". With ADS-B out, they would have a much better idea, though they would need to get used to thermalling behavour.

Actually, my experience with NorCal Approach was different. Last Sep 2016 while flying up from Inyokern to Reno, I stopped in a 17.5k msl climb thermal just SE of Carson City. While monitoring NorCal frequency, I inadvertently made a call to my friend Jim Staniforth, thinking I was on 123.3. To my surprise, the NorCal controller called back, identifying me as "Glider N53LK" just as if I was in flight following. He asked me to ident (Trig 22 transponder on code 1202) which I did. Trained and observant controllers already know we are gliders... and with Mode S they have our ID and N-number right on their display (at least this controller did). I was pleasantly surprised ... and pleased... to know that ATC was watching. That makes my purchase and install of the Trig Mode S transponder very worthwhile.

Walt Rogers WX

Oh they know we are gliders. Don't need Mode S (or even mode C) for that, just look for the slow moving target wandering all over the place like a drunken sailor. I fly out of Truckee so I cross the approach into Reno twice on nearly every flight. On occasion I've been close enough to the Southwestm737s to tell you which seats were empty, and who still needed drinks. The controllers have always been helpful when I talk to them. They are pretty good about steering the 737s around us. I am simply suggesting that their job would be a lot easier with more information that they typically lack on gliders.

In the Truckee/Reno area, as far as controllers and airliners matter, I expect the thing that ATC will really want is folks with transponder and folks following PASCO procedures to communicate with Norcal (wether or not they have transponders). I'm wiling to bet those controllers would much rather have glider plots have transponders and talking to them than equipped with ADS-B Out.


On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 7:31:56 PM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 4:49:20 PM UTC-8, WaltWX wrote:
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 9:44:24 AM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 12:20:26 PM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
I have a PowerFlarm and transponder. Ninety percent of my flying is from the Southern Cal operating areas up through the Sierras and typical operating area out of Minden. So while I do pass through a few more trafficked areas, (Cajon& Banning Pass, Tahoe, Reno...etc) the majority of my flight time is with other gliders. I perfectly see transponder equipped and Flarm equipped gliders, why would I want to add the capability of ADS-B out?

If I was regularly operating in LA class B airspace I can see why I would want all the help and broadcast, but for gliders not typically operating in high traffic airspace why the extra cost, space and battery drain?

Flying in the Reno/Tahoe area, it would give Norcal Approach better information. With a transponder only, they are trying to guess what you are doing, often gliders are not moving fast enough to be able to tell on ATC radar. I know this from listening to them. The subtext of these conversations is "there's a glider there wandering around, got no idea what the hell he's doing". With ADS-B out, they would have a much better idea, though they would need to get used to thermalling behavour.

Actually, my experience with NorCal Approach was different. Last Sep 2016 while flying up from Inyokern to Reno, I stopped in a 17.5k msl climb thermal just SE of Carson City. While monitoring NorCal frequency, I inadvertently made a call to my friend Jim Staniforth, thinking I was on 123.3. To my surprise, the NorCal controller called back, identifying me as "Glider N53LK" just as if I was in flight following. He asked me to ident (Trig 22 transponder on code 1202) which I did. Trained and observant controllers already know we are gliders... and with Mode S they have our ID and N-number right on their display (at least this controller did). I was pleasantly surprised ... and pleased... to know that ATC was watching. That makes my purchase and install of the Trig Mode S transponder very worthwhile.

Walt Rogers WX

Oh they know we are gliders. Don't need Mode S (or even mode C) for that, just look for the slow moving target wandering all over the place like a drunken sailor. I fly out of Truckee so I cross the approach into Reno twice on nearly every flight. On occasion I've been close enough to the Southwestm737s to tell you which seats were empty, and who still needed drinks. The controllers have always been helpful when I talk to them. They are pretty good about steering the 737s around us. I am simply suggesting that their job would be a lot easier with more information that they typically lack on gliders.

On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 8:05:37 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
In the Truckee/Reno area, as far as controllers and airliners matter, I expect the thing that ATC will really want is folks with transponder and folks following PASCO procedures to communicate with Norcal (wether or not they have transponders). I'm wiling to bet those controllers would much rather have glider plots have transponders and talking to them than equipped with ADS-B Out.


On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 7:31:56 PM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 4:49:20 PM UTC-8, WaltWX wrote:
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 9:44:24 AM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 12:20:26 PM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
I have a PowerFlarm and transponder. Ninety percent of my flying is from the Southern Cal operating areas up through the Sierras and typical operating area out of Minden. So while I do pass through a few more trafficked areas, (Cajon& Banning Pass, Tahoe, Reno...etc) the majority of my flight time is with other gliders. I perfectly see transponder equipped and Flarm equipped gliders, why would I want to add the capability of ADS-B out?

If I was regularly operating in LA class B airspace I can see why I would want all the help and broadcast, but for gliders not typically operating in high traffic airspace why the extra cost, space and battery drain?

Flying in the Reno/Tahoe area, it would give Norcal Approach better information. With a transponder only, they are trying to guess what you are doing, often gliders are not moving fast enough to be able to tell on ATC radar. I know this from listening to them. The subtext of these conversations is "there's a glider there wandering around, got no idea what the hell he's doing". With ADS-B out, they would have a much better idea, though they would need to get used to thermalling behavour.

Actually, my experience with NorCal Approach was different. Last Sep 2016 while flying up from Inyokern to Reno, I stopped in a 17.5k msl climb thermal just SE of Carson City. While monitoring NorCal frequency, I inadvertently made a call to my friend Jim Staniforth, thinking I was on 123.3. To my surprise, the NorCal controller called back, identifying me as "Glider N53LK" just as if I was in flight following. He asked me to ident (Trig 22 transponder on code 1202) which I did. Trained and observant controllers already know we are gliders... and with Mode S they have our ID and N-number right on their display (at least this controller did). I was pleasantly surprised ... and pleased... to know that ATC was watching. That makes my purchase and install of the Trig Mode S transponder very worthwhile.

Walt Rogers WX

Oh they know we are gliders. Don't need Mode S (or even mode C) for that, just look for the slow moving target wandering all over the place like a drunken sailor. I fly out of Truckee so I cross the approach into Reno twice on nearly every flight. On occasion I've been close enough to the Southwestm737s to tell you which seats were empty, and who still needed drinks. The controllers have always been helpful when I talk to them. They are pretty good about steering the 737s around us. I am simply suggesting that their job would be a lot easier with more information that they typically lack on gliders.

I haven't been that close since I put in a transponder, so it's doing its job. But good point about them wanting to talk rather than watch.

On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 10:31:56 PM UTC-5, jfitch wrote:
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 4:49:20 PM UTC-8, WaltWX wrote:
On Sunday, January 8, 2017 at 9:44:24 AM UTC-8, jfitch wrote:
On Friday, January 6, 2017 at 12:20:26 PM UTC-8, Jonathan St. Cloud wrote:
I have a PowerFlarm and transponder. Ninety percent of my flying is from the Southern Cal operating areas up through the Sierras and typical operating area out of Minden. So while I do pass through a few more trafficked areas, (Cajon& Banning Pass, Tahoe, Reno...etc) the majority of my flight time is with other gliders. I perfectly see transponder equipped and Flarm equipped gliders, why would I want to add the capability of ADS-B out?

If I was regularly operating in LA class B airspace I can see why I would want all the help and broadcast, but for gliders not typically operating in high traffic airspace why the extra cost, space and battery drain?

Flying in the Reno/Tahoe area, it would give Norcal Approach better information. With a transponder only, they are trying to guess what you are doing, often gliders are not moving fast enough to be able to tell on ATC radar. I know this from listening to them. The subtext of these conversations is "there's a glider there wandering around, got no idea what the hell he's doing". With ADS-B out, they would have a much better idea, though they would need to get used to thermalling behavour.

Actually, my experience with NorCal Approach was different. Last Sep 2016 while flying up from Inyokern to Reno, I stopped in a 17.5k msl climb thermal just SE of Carson City. While monitoring NorCal frequency, I inadvertently made a call to my friend Jim Staniforth, thinking I was on 123.3. To my surprise, the NorCal controller called back, identifying me as "Glider N53LK" just as if I was in flight following. He asked me to ident (Trig 22 transponder on code 1202) which I did. Trained and observant controllers already know we are gliders... and with Mode S they have our ID and N-number right on their display (at least this controller did). I was pleasantly surprised ... and pleased... to know that ATC was watching. That makes my purchase and install of the Trig Mode S transponder very worthwhile.

Walt Rogers WX

Oh they know we are gliders. Don't need Mode S (or even mode C) for that, just look for the slow moving target wandering all over the place like a drunken sailor. I fly out of Truckee so I cross the approach into Reno twice on nearly every flight. On occasion I've been close enough to the Southwestm737s to tell you which seats were empty, and who still needed drinks. The controllers have always been helpful when I talk to them. They are pretty good about steering the 737s around us. I am simply suggesting that their job would be a lot easier with more information that they typically lack on gliders.

Ending up that close to a 737 is exactly why you want ADS-B IN (and OUT). If you can see this guy coming, and it's no surprise, it's not a problem. But if he suddenly shows up, chances are that he or ATC never saw you. With ADS-B IN you are in control and can proactively stay out of the way and not have to rely on ATC or an airline captain's eyeballs to keep you safe.

I already see that 737 and they see me as I have PowerFlarm and Mode-S transponder.

On Monday, January 9, 2017 at 5:30:29 AM UTC-8, Mike Schumann wrote:

Ending up that close to a 737 is exactly why you want ADS-B IN (and OUT). If you can see this guy coming, and it's no surprise, it's not a problem. But if he suddenly shows up, chances are that he or ATC never saw you. With ADS-B IN you are in control and can proactively stay out of the way and not have to rely on ATC or an airline captain's eyeballs to keep you safe.