Future of 15m

On Saturday, December 2, 2017 at 2:38:59 PM UTC-8, John Godfrey (QT) wrote:
Andy,
I think we have to go beyond Nationals to address this properly. Harder to do as you need to map glider to native class for all the regionals.

Yeah, that's more work that I was willing to do. Nationals participation is an okay leading indicator.

The other thing to think about is you can always fly Sports and there are occasionally mixed FAI contests. Generally, organizers don't want to turn pilots away so I wouldn't be too concerned that anyone is going to pull the plug on 15M anytime soon.

Last year, the average PRL score for competitors at FAI Nationals was 94 for 18M, 92 for Open, 91 for standard and 90 for 15M, so high-quality pilots continue to fly all classes at the Nationals level at least.

Lots of very good 15M gliders out there - Standard too.

9B

I fly a 29, never flown a 27 but I can tell you what you get in a 29 that you do not get in a 27. A 29 has wings that are 50 pounds heavier per side! So add in the extra 100 pounds in wing weight, throw in $50,000 mix it together and you get a 4-5% increase in performance. I do love the 29, but if I had a modern 15 meter, I would not look to "upgrade", unless of course I was going open class! As far as racing there is top flight competition in 15 meters from regional level through WGC level.



On Saturday, December 2, 2017 at 8:40:30 PM UTC-8, Andy Blackburn wrote:
On Saturday, December 2, 2017 at 2:38:59 PM UTC-8, John Godfrey (QT) wrote:
Andy,
I think we have to go beyond Nationals to address this properly. Harder to do as you need to map glider to native class for all the regionals.

Yeah, that's more work that I was willing to do. Nationals participation is an okay leading indicator.

The other thing to think about is you can always fly Sports and there are occasionally mixed FAI contests. Generally, organizers don't want to turn pilots away so I wouldn't be too concerned that anyone is going to pull the plug on 15M anytime soon.

Last year, the average PRL score for competitors at FAI Nationals was 94 for 18M, 92 for Open, 91 for standard and 90 for 15M, so high-quality pilots continue to fly all classes at the Nationals level at least.

Lots of very good 15M gliders out there - Standard too.

9B

Sounds like for competitive soaring to endure in the US, there needs to be a significant push to get more people involved. Sounds like there needs to be more focus on young people, getting them involved from an early age.

I'm from MT, and there is apparently only 1 soaring club in the state, and it is a solid 4hr drive from where I live. And from what I'm told, they are not very active, if at all. Yet there is an airport 1 mile from my house with a whole fleet of Piper Pawnees (used mostly for wildland firefighting). Not a whole lot of money locally, but the place would make for stunning soaring!

I think the GP15 could well start a 15m resurgence

Electric self launcher (with ballast)
near 18m performance at 15m prices
light handling both in the air and on the ground (pity the wings arent 4 piece)

massive research in batteries should help. As long as the batteries (in the wings) dont catch fire or fail to perform because they are cold, this machine looks like a winner

On Monday, 4 December 2017 09:44:41 UTC+2, Rhubarb wrote:
I think the GP15 could well start a 15m resurgence

Electric self launcher (with ballast)
near 18m performance at 15m prices
light handling both in the air and on the ground (pity the wings arent 4 piece)

massive research in batteries should help. As long as the batteries (in the wings) dont catch fire or fail to perform because they are cold, this machine looks like a winner

One thing is sure, there is no market for new glider that has no engine, so GP15 and possibly FES-Diana2 are the only contenders in pure 15m class. I guess some pilots will buy 15m tips for their 18m gliders, out of old habit while not using them outside 15m competitions.

There is no advance in aerodynamics that would make latest 15m perform like current 18m gliders, that is just marketing. Wing profiles have developed little lately.

materials seem to have improved though. the GP15 is very light, which allows a lower wing area, which gives a higher aspect ratio, which is probably the reason behind the expected performance gains. (maybe thinner wing too)

On Monday, December 4, 2017 at 12:43:30 AM UTC-8, Rhubarb wrote:
materials seem to have improved though. the GP15 is very light, which allows a lower wing area, which gives a higher aspect ratio, which is probably the reason behind the expected performance gains. (maybe thinner wing too)

Hoping to see the GP15 at Reno.
Jim

Originally Posted by Rhubarb[_2_]

materials seem to have improved though. the GP15 is very light, which allows a lower wing area, which gives a higher aspect ratio, which is probably the reason behind the expected performance gains. (maybe thinner wing too)

The GP15 is a beautiful glider and promises to perform well. However we must remember it is built to a different set of standards than CS-22. This different conformity and lightness of build may affect crashworthiness and load limits.
It will be registered in the microlight or Ultralight category in a lot of countries which may restrict its wingloading and operating limits. Not sure where the USA sits in this regard.
Having said that they look fast. And when they look fast they generally go fast.

On Sunday, December 3, 2017 at 11:24:42 PM UTC-8, John Foster wrote:
Sounds like for competitive soaring to endure in the US, there needs to be a significant push to get more people involved. Sounds like there needs to be more focus on young people, getting them involved from an early age.

I'm from MT, and there is apparently only 1 soaring club in the state, and it is a solid 4hr drive from where I live. And from what I'm told, they are not very active, if at all. Yet there is an airport 1 mile from my house with a whole fleet of Piper Pawnees (used mostly for wildland firefighting). Not a whole lot of money locally, but the place would make for stunning soaring!

Where in MT do you live?

I've owned my Standard Class ASW 24 for over 25 years. So for some time, my big question has been whether I can continue to fly contests where at least some top pilots show up. As 9B's data indicate, that seems to be the case in Standard Class. It's a small group, true, but every class in soaring is small these days.

Encouraging me is that I can fly Standard (which has some nice handicapping to encourage older generation gliders), Club, Sports, and--at the regional level--mixed handicapped 15M/Standard (e.g., Fairfield Reg. 4). And subject to the efficacy of the handicapping factors, I have a competitive glider in all of them.

Yeah, the "subject to" is an issue, especially out west, but it's one I'm willing to live with. I can't justify buying a new glider so it's nice to think I don't have to.

Chip Bearden