More on Bush in the Air Guard

"Steve Mellenthin" wrote in message
...
Bush is a miserable failure no matter how deeply you plough your head
into
the
sand.


Walt

Walt, I have to have to be the one to tell you but your rants here are
doing
nothing to convince anyone to change their politcal affiliations. All
they are
doing is to convince Bush supporters and the undecided that many of
Kerry's
supporters are Bush hating drones and that there is no real political
agenda
for them other than to get revenge for the perception that Bush stole the
election. why don't you let it go or take it elsewhere to a more
receptive
audience. Emaimls here are running 10:1 against you and that ratio is not
increasing mainly because everyone is putting you in their kill file,
including
me after I hit send..

Actually I think the wacky postings are great because they demonstrate the
poor reasoning and disregard for the facts so common among the followers of
the left. Keep them coming I say so more the swing voters out there can see
just what these people are all about!

Jarg

Actually I think the wacky postings are great because they demonstrate the
poor reasoning and disregard for the facts so common among the followers of
the left.

General Zinni is not on the left:

"In the book, Zinni writes: "In the lead up to the Iraq war and its later
conduct, I saw at a minimum, true dereliction, negligence and irresponsibility,
at worse, lying, incompetence and corruption."

“I think there was dereliction in insufficient forces being put on the ground
and fully understanding the military dimensions of the plan. I think there was
dereliction in lack of planning,� says Zinni. “The president is owed the
finest strategic thinking. He is owed the finest operational planning. He is
owed the finest tactical execution on the ground. … He got the latter. He
didn’t get the first two.�

Zinni says Iraq was the wrong war at the wrong time - with the wrong strategy.
And he was saying it before the U.S. invasion. In the months leading up to the
war, while still Middle East envoy, Zinni carried the message to Congress:
“This is, in my view, the worst time to take this on. And I don’t feel it
needs to be done now.�

But he wasn’t the only former military leader with doubts about the invasion
of Iraq. Former General and National Security Advisor Brent Scowcroft, former
Centcom Commander Norman Schwarzkopf, former NATO Commander Wesley Clark, and
former Army Chief of Staff Eric Shinseki all voiced their reservations.

Zinni believes this was a war the generals didn’t want – but it was a war
the civilians wanted.

“I can't speak for all generals, certainly. But I know we felt that this
situation was contained. Saddam was effectively contained. The no-fly, no-drive
zones. The sanctions that were imposed on him,� says Zinni."

General Hoar is not on the left:

Gen. Joseph P. Hoar (USMC-ret.), a four-star general, was Commander in
Chief, U.S. Central Command (1991-94), commanding the U.S. forces in the
Persian Gulf after the 1991 war. He also served in the Vietnam War, as a
battalion and brigade advisor with the Vietnamese Marines. He was
interviewed by Jeffrey Steinberg on May 6, 2004.

EIR: You were one of the people who had been critical before the
outbreak of fighting, over whether or not the situation warranted going
to war. I believe you also had some rather accurate warnings about what
might happen, as the war unfolded, especially after the hot phase.
What's your thinking on these issues now, in hindsight, as we're over a
year past the formal fighting phase?

Hoar: There's small comfort in realizing that perhaps you were closer to
reality than the elected and appointed figures in the civilian
government. Those of us that have had some experience in the region over
the years, and don't necessarily have ulterior motivations, particularly
people that know very much about Iraq?and I don't necessarily put myself
in that category; specifically, I know a fair amount about the
political-military situation in the region, but know enough about Iraq
to know that any military operation and any subsequent reconstruction
efforts, to include the interjection of democracy, were going to be
extremely difficult, and perhaps impossible.

But, my major concern, Jeff, really was, that while I was in favor of
regime change, I was not in favor of it a year and a half or two years
ago, and certainly not these means. And the reason, of course, was the
much higher priorities: the protection of the United States through the
development of the Homeland Securities activities; the completion,
successfully, of the Afghanistan campaign; and the destruction of
al-Qaeda; all seem to me to be much higher priorities than going after
Iraq. And you know the arguments as well as I do: the weapons of mass
destruction, the threat to the United States, the connection between
al-Qaeda, and then finally, the reason was indicated that this was a
rogue regime, that punished its citizens, and its human rights record
was abysmal and so forth. We all know that story. The fact remains, that
this would have been a very difficult undertaking under the best of
circumstances, and unfortunately, with the exception of the Phase I
military operation, which terminated essentially with the end of
organized resistance over a year ago, the rest of it has been a
disaster.

EIR: I was at an event, where both Gen. [Anthony] Zinni [USMC-ret.] and
Chas Freeman, former U.S. Ambassador to Saudi Arabia, spoke, and this
was about eight months before the outbreak of fighting, in March 2003,
and they both basically thought that the real troubles would begin after
the "hot phase" of combat, when American forces would be there as an
occupying force. And they rejected the neo-con and Cheney thesis, that
this would be a cakewalk and we'd be greeted as liberators."

Bush is a miserable failure.

Walt

"WalterM140" wrote in message
...
Actually I think the wacky postings are great because they demonstrate
the
poor reasoning and disregard for the facts so common among the followers
of
the left.



EIR: I was at an event, where both Gen. [Anthony] Zinni [USMC-ret.] and
Chas Freeman, former U.S. Ambassador to Saudi Arabia, spoke, and this
was about eight months before the outbreak of fighting, in March 2003,
and they both basically thought that the real troubles would begin after
the "hot phase" of combat, when American forces would be there as an
occupying force. And they rejected the neo-con and Cheney thesis, that
this would be a cakewalk and we'd be greeted as liberators."


So you find a couple of guys (former this and former that) who don't agree
with aspects of the Iraq strategy and you think this is particularly
meaningful? I doubt anyone thought the al Qaida operatives in Iraq would
greet anyone as liberators. Clearly most Iraqis are glad to have a chance
at a real government. Relative to many past military actions this was a
cakewalk, and if you don't know that you need to start reading your history.
Saddam needed to go, and thanks in large part to President Bush's leadership
he is gone.


Bush is a miserable failure.


You don't seem to be in any postition to be calling names given your angry
crazed repetitive ramblings.



Walt




Typical desperate left wing stuff - criticism without offering alternatives
other than to elect Kerry, a person with the most liberal (read out of
touch) voting record in the Senate, a person who also hasn't presented any
reasonable alternatives to any of these issues, a person who has repeatedly
demonstrated tendancy to flip flop on any given subject, who thinks the
solution for improving the economy is raising taxes., etc. How very sad
that this is all you can come up with.

Jarg

So you find a couple of guys (former this and former that) who don't agree
with aspects of the Iraq strategy

Not "guys".

Two former commanders of Central Command.

Certainly not on the 'left' despite your propagandist rant.

Bush is a miserable failure. We are less safe now than we were on 9/11.

But now we have almost 900 KIA and nothing to show for it.

No one -- certainly no one who served in the military -- could think that the
reasons Bush 43 has given -- shutting down the torture chambers, bringing
'freedom' to Iraq, and the rest, could possibly be worth 900 KIA

Walt

"WalterM140" wrote

No one -- certainly no one who served in the military -- could think that the
reasons Bush 43 has given -- shutting down the torture chambers, bringing
'freedom' to Iraq, and the rest, could possibly be worth 900 KIA

I served in the military, and I was in both the Infantry, and a crewmember in
the USAF. I retired in 1993 after 25 years. I spent 8 years in the Iran-Iraq
war, and witnessed the attack on the U.S.S. Stark. I spent my last years on
active duty in the air war that ejected Iraq from Kuwait, and two years of
wasting our treasury on containing Iraq. For 24 years we fought that country,
and millions of Iraqis, and Iranians died.

It is worth it. War isn't pretty, and we wish everyone had perfect tactical vision,
but Iraq had no chance of continuing as a country, and I'm glad we invaded.
Iraq is in the hands of real Iraqis now, and we should do everything in our power
to support them in ridding the last elements of the dictators regime.

"D. Strang" wrote in message
news:HtuJc.1563$Zr.663@okepread01...
"WalterM140" wrote

I served in the military, and I was in both the Infantry, and a crewmember in
the USAF. I retired in 1993 after 25 years.

I spent 8 years in the Iran-Iraq war,.....

You spent it doing what, and on which side....Iran or Iraq? AFAIK, our only
involvement in that war was that we taught Saddam Hussein's army how to use
chemical weapons, and we shared intelligence data with them that we'd gathered
about our joint enemy, Iran. So what were you doing during those eight years,
teaching them how to use mustard gas?

.....and witnessed the attack on the U.S.S. Stark.

How did you happen to witness that attack? Surely, not from your vantage point
in your infantry foxhole, so it must have been from your airplane. How about
filling us in on how you happened to see it?

.....I spent my last years on active duty in the air war that ejected Iraq
from Kuwait,

I think the half million or so ground troops we committed to kicking the Iraqis
out of Kuwait would take exception to your conclusion that the air war had
accomplished that all by itself. I expect that Stormin' Norman Schwarzkopf
might also have had a few things to say on the subject by way of argument.

.....and two years of wasting our treasury on containing Iraq. For 24 years
we
fought that country, and millions of Iraqis, and Iranians died.

24 years? How about the time we were helping Iraq deal with their Iranian
neighbors during their 8 year old war, which was right in the middle of the 24
years you're talking about?

You know, a lot of us have problems remember details of things we've done and
said in the past, and it isn't a crime to have to admit it. But if you expect
to have any credibility in this forum, you're going to need to do a little more
homework and get your facts right before you start mouthing off with a lot of
erroneous BS. I probably wouldn't have had any questions to ask you at all if
you hadn't tossed such obvious bloopers out there for us rubes to swallow hook,
line, and sinker.

George Z.

"George Z. Bush" wrote
"D. Strang" wrote

I served in the military, and I was in both the Infantry, and a crewmember in
the USAF. I retired in 1993 after 25 years.

I spent 8 years in the Iran-Iraq war,.....

You spent it doing what, and on which side....Iran or Iraq? AFAIK, our only
involvement in that war was that we taught Saddam Hussein's army how to use
chemical weapons, and we shared intelligence data with them that we'd gathered
about our joint enemy, Iran. So what were you doing during those eight years,
teaching them how to use mustard gas?

The USAF flew 24 hour orbits for 8 years using RC-135, E-3, and Naval assets
in the Gulf. The mission was to protect the Saudi oil fields. Later we also had the
Earnest Will operation, which was the Kuwait reflagging, and war with Iran.

.....and witnessed the attack on the U.S.S. Stark.

How did you happen to witness that attack? Surely, not from your vantage point
in your infantry foxhole, so it must have been from your airplane. How about
filling us in on how you happened to see it?

I transferred to the USAF in 1978 after I got my Masters degree. We tracked the
Iraqi pilot as he entered the Gulf, until he returned to Iraq. We also tracked his
Exocet to the Stark using radar.

.....I spent my last years on active duty in the air war that ejected Iraq
from Kuwait,

I think the half million or so ground troops we committed to kicking the Iraqis
out of Kuwait would take exception to your conclusion that the air war had
accomplished that all by itself. I expect that Stormin' Norman Schwarzkopf
might also have had a few things to say on the subject by way of argument.

I'm talking about my little world, not the whole military force. Of course we didn't
personally eject anyone.

.....and two years of wasting our treasury on containing Iraq. For 24 years
we
fought that country, and millions of Iraqis, and Iranians died.

24 years? How about the time we were helping Iraq deal with their Iranian
neighbors during their 8 year old war, which was right in the middle of the 24
years you're talking about?

During those 8 years, my only mission was to protect the oil fields. I don't have
any personal knowledge, other then tactics against airborne threats out of Iran,
Iraq, or the Soviet Union.

You know, a lot of us have problems remember details of things we've done and
said in the past, and it isn't a crime to have to admit it. But if you expect
to have any credibility in this forum, you're going to need to do a little more
homework and get your facts right before you start mouthing off with a lot of
erroneous BS. I probably wouldn't have had any questions to ask you at all if
you hadn't tossed such obvious bloopers out there for us rubes to swallow hook,
line, and sinker.

Take a pill.

"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

Bush is a miserable failure. We are less safe now than we were on 9/11.

But now we have almost 900 KIA and nothing to show for it.

No one -- certainly no one who served in the military -- could think that
the
reasons Bush 43 has given -- shutting down the torture chambers, bringing
'freedom' to Iraq, and the rest, could possibly be worth 900 KIA


Informed, intelligent people understand the reasons for the war on terror.
It is unlikely you ever served in the military.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message link.net...
"WalterM140" wrote in message
...

Bush is a miserable failure. We are less safe now than we were on 9/11.

But now we have almost 900 KIA and nothing to show for it.

No one -- certainly no one who served in the military -- could think that
the
reasons Bush 43 has given -- shutting down the torture chambers, bringing
'freedom' to Iraq, and the rest, could possibly be worth 900 KIA


Informed, intelligent people understand the reasons for the war on terror.
It is unlikely you ever served in the military.

We were discussing the war with Iraq. Let's not change that subject, eh?

--

FF

"Fred the Red Shirt" wrote in message
m...

We were discussing the war with Iraq. Let's not change that subject, eh?


I didn't.