Night bombers interception in Western Europe in 1944

Dozens of bombers had limped home in the preceeding
months with damage that clearly indicated the angle of the attack - the Brits
had figured it out

I'd be glad of a source. Some damaged British bombers returned, but few did if
they were attacked by SM.

Walt

Butcher Harris wouldn't have agreed to the drop in tonnage carried in
exchange
for the saved lives of a few thousand Bomber Command heroes - they had
discussions on re-installing the turrets and it was flatly denied.

Worse, it was shown that enlarging the ecape hatch diameter just a few inches
would mean a lot more air crew could get out of damaged aircraft. But that was
nixed because that would have slowed down the production. The crews were
expendable.

Walt

From: (WalterM140)
Date: 7/14/2004 5:42 AM Central Daylight Time
Message-id:

What sort of problems faced a defender in attempting to intercept and
shoot down night bombers in 1944?

Not having enough aviation fuel was a big problem late in snip

Walt

Walt, I'm impressed, you actually DO know how to discuss military aviation
without spewing your anti bush garbage.

Are you feeling OK?


Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired

"ian maclure" wrote in message ...
On Wed, 14 Jul 2004 10:42:31 +0000, WalterM140 wrote:

[snip]

Hitler largely refused to allow German night fighters to
operate over England.
This was one of his misguided "brain waves"; he also didn't see the point of
shooting down bombers where the people couldn't see them. The few times
this happened any way, the Germans had good succcess.

It doesn't seem irrational to me. Protecting the secrets of German
electronics equipement would seem to be a key priority. The Germans
used various techniques: multiple frequencies, special modulation
schemes (chirping) to improve resisetence to jamming.



Operating intruders over Britain as night fighters would be
a good way to lose a lot of them. Mosquitoes and other high
performance aircraft vectored by radar would have shredded
them.

German nightfighters if equiped with tail warning radar eg those with
the SN2R or variants of the Neptune tail warning radar generally did
very well at avoiding Mosquito interception. For instance Ju 88 with
SN2R outperformed the He 219 which was much faster but had only the
SN2.

The problem the Germans had in combat was that the range of the German
radars was limited to the altitude of the aircraft since the beam was
very broad. (this also picking up the ground, jamming and
window/chaff) while the Allied aircraft could play the deadly game
down to the ground. The situation was changing from Feburary 1945
with the introduction of the FuG 244 microwave radars into Ju88 G7
series aircraft for troop testing.




IBM

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"Krztalizer" wrote in message
...

I am interested both over Germany and Britain.

--

Get a copy of the book "NightFighter" by Rawlings.
Excellent read....


Before he died at a relatively early age, Jimmy Rawnsley sat down and had
a
beer with many nightfighter airmen - several guys featured in his classic
book
remarked that they didn't realize that they were being "interviewed" for
it.
His former squadronmates report that they felt he told their story
accurately.
There are several books with the title "Nightfighter" - John Rawlings did
a
good one, but Jimmy Rawnsley's is better.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Its always better to lose -an- engine, not -the- engine.

Sir, My father flew nightfighters during WW2 in the European theater,
(Beaufighters, then P-61's) though I'm not familiar with either of those
books,I wonder if they could shed some light on his service to our country.
I've got a few medals but have no idea what he did to deserve them. I'm not
even sure what they are, one says DFC or something like that on the back,
the other is a silver star and two purple hearts. (I know what the Hearts
are for, duh!) Is there any way that you know of where I could "actually"
find out. He's been gone for over thirty years and I always wondered what he
did to get them. Sorry if this comes off a little lame but I saw the
nightfighter thread and got interested...

TIA,

Tom

BTW- As an xPanAm crew chief, you're completely correct, not the engine is
"way better", though I've seen a few that did just that......

Subject: Night bombers interception in Western Europe in 1944
From: (WalterM140)
Date: 7/14/2004 3:07 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Butcher Harris wouldn't have agreed to the drop in tonnage carried in
exchange
for the saved lives of a few thousand Bomber Command heroes - they had
discussions on re-installing the turrets and it was flatly denied.

Worse, it was shown that enlarging the ecape hatch diameter just a few inches
would mean a lot more air crew could get out of damaged aircraft. But that
was
nixed because that would have slowed down the production. The crews were
expendable.

Walt



Same in the Army AIr Corps. The escape path for a bombardier in a B-26 Marauder
was near impossible to negotiate in dire emergencies. The problem was solved in
the later A-26 Invader.I took off on every mission with the knowledge that in
case of dire emergency I would probably die in the nose of Willie the Wolf.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Worse, it was shown that enlarging the ecape hatch diameter just a few inches
would mean a lot more air crew could get out of damaged aircraft. But that
was
nixed because that would have slowed down the production.

Sounds about right.

The crews were
expendable.

Most crews had only a short time together, before they were interred together.
My heart goes out to the men of Bomber Command, Torpedo 8, and all airmen in
similar positions. "Fly till ya die" and all that.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Its always better to lose -an- engine, not -the- engine.

I took off on every mission with the knowledge that in
case of dire emergency I would probably die in the nose of Willie the Wolf.


As sad as it is, you were right. Glad that situation never happened, Art.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Its always better to lose -an- engine, not -the- engine.

Hi, Tom.

Sir, My father flew nightfighters during WW2 in the European theater,
(Beaufighters, then P-61's)

Soo, he was in the 415th or 422nd NFS, stationed in the Med and later
England/Belgium...? There is a small organization for P-61 crews that he may
already know about. If not, I can put you/him in touch with the guys.

though I'm not familiar with either of those
books,I wonder if they could shed some light on his service to our country.

You have to buy a book called "Queen of the Midnight Skies", about early US
nightfighter efforts, particularly in the theater of war that your dad
experienced. Although the book is skewed toward the P-61 (*Badly*), the
authors interviewed dozens of survivors and give a great insider's view of the
US entry into this new field of combat.

I've got a few medals but have no idea what he did to deserve them.

We can find out - sure about that.

I'm not
even sure what they are, one says DFC or something like that on the back,
the other is a silver star and two purple hearts. (I know what the Hearts
are for, duh!) Is there any way that you know of where I could "actually"
find out. He's been gone for over thirty years and I always wondered what he
did to get them. Sorry if this comes off a little lame but I saw the
nightfighter thread and got interested...

Not lame at all - this is what most of us are "here" for.

BTW- As an xPanAm crew chief, you're completely correct, not the engine is
"way better", though I've seen a few that did just that.

As a sidelight to the other thread (Extremis Intercomm), the worst thing I
heard on the radio out at sea was an A-7 gent announcing to the world, "I'm
passing through 3,000 feet and I'm in a #$^$#ing GLIDER!"

My advice is to ALWAYS bring a second engine - you never know when it will
become your *only* engine.

Pleasure to meet you, Tom. Hope we can help you.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Its always better to lose -an- engine, not -the- engine.

Dozens of bombers had limped home in the preceeding
months with damage that clearly indicated the angle of the attack - the
Brits
had figured it out

I'd be glad of a source. Some damaged British bombers returned, but few did
if
they were attacked by SM.

I'd have to go back through a year of posts on the RAF forum and over at the 12
O'clock High forum to find it, but I will try. SM was a great weapon system
and the tactics evolved to use it made attacks far more deadly than the usual,
"slug it out with the MU and tail turret" attack. Funny that the WWII Germans
got credit for inventing slant weapons when so many other folks used it in the
Great War.

v/r
Gordon
====(A+C====
USN SAR

Its always better to lose -an- engine, not -the- engine.