New pilot looking for glider to purchase.

I agree with everyone who suggests the trailer is as important as the
glider. Easy rigging and transport is paramount! Most will steer you
away from a glider that has only flaps. I would guess those who say a
newer pilot shouldn't start with a flapped ship haven't spent much time
in one, they have many advantages and can be purchased at better prices
and are no more difficult to fly than spoilers. They are just a little
different. A PIK 20B is a stellar ship that can be bought pretty cheap
and you won't ever outgrow it unless you just want 3% more performance
for 3 times the money.

Some poor advice been given here. Libelle and Pik 20b - two ships that
Derek Piggot advises a low time pilot to stay clear of for various
reasons. Unless you have way above average skills I would advise you stay
clear of them as well until you have built up several hundred hours..

Suggest you read Derek Piggott on Gliding. A & C Black ISBN 0-
7136-5799-5. Lots of sound advice on what ship to choose for a first glider
from one of the worlds most experienced and respected instructors.

Here's "another country heard from..."

Believe it or not, there's only one sentence between both the above posts with
which I would quibble, and it's the lead-in to the bottom post. So how do I
reconcile what at first blush appears outright contradictory inputs?

Disclosures:
- I've not had the pleasure of meeting Derek Piggot, but I have great respect
for his experience in, and judgments concerning, all aspects of soaring.
- I am not a CFIG.
- I (and my ship partner at the time) transitioned into a 15-meter glass
1st-generation landing-flap-only-equipped glider (Concept 70 - think flapped
G-102-ish), me from 1-26 with ~125 logged total hours (he from a Ka-8 with, I
seem to remember, ~the same total hours, maybe slightly more). Our first
exposures to flapped gliders...
- Since that low-time transition I've acquired 2K+ hours in 3 different types
of landing-flaps-only single-seaters.

Both our transitions were of the "nothing to see here" sort for our peanut
galleries. Why? Because - it seemed important to me then, and so I still
believe - we both had spent considerable time discussing/researching/pondering
our impending "step up in performance" and we both flew with "sensibly
developed plans." By "plans," I mean both hopes for success and contingency
plans in the event some of our thinking proved less than spot-on. It was the
best we could do at that time and place - no 2-seat training gliders with
similar flaps (or *any* flaps) existed, and no instructors with flapped time
were known/available to us. Mental prep matters.

YMWV depending upon situation, attitude, inclinations, etc. I presume the
asking of this question on RAS is part of your planned self-education process.
Tangentially, just in case you've not already begun doing so, use the
self-education process to hone your critical thinking skills. In short, try to
get inside every advice-giver's head to the extent of being able to gain some
insight into *why* they are offering you their advice. It, too, matters.

When Derek Piggot initially offered the advice referred to above, he was an
active, full-time instructor in Great Britain, a smallish country (by
comparison to the U.S.), with a relatively high density (compared to the U.S.)
of available used gliders, but a glider population even less dense that the
U.S.' with flapped single-seat gliders available for new pilots. (Over here,
Dick Schreder had been proselytizing flaps by creating flapped ships for over
a decade before the PIK-20 appeared, and even Schweizer was so bold as to
develop the 1-35 at roughly the same time as the PIK 20.) Piggot's advice was
both understandable and sensible. But I'd bet Real Money Mr. Piggot would also
readily agree "one size doesn't fit everyone" when it comes to new ship
purchase decisions.

What I've personally experienced many times, over 3+ decades of being a
soaring nut, is many soaring pilots offering "anti-flaps advice" have "less
than first-hand knowledge/experience with them." That's entirely
understandable, given the relatively low percentage of flapped gliders, and
the even *lower* proportion of landing-flap-only equipped gliders, and every
glider pilot's willingness (eagerness, ha ha!) to talk gliders/gliding at the
slightest excuse. Depending upon one's personal flavor of internal cynic, an
argument could be made that all advice from 2nd-hand sources should be
outright dismissed. OTOH, an argument could be made that those with 1st-hand
experience have axes to grind. I submit "actionable reality" lies somewhere
between those extremes.

New Ship Purchasing Rule No. 1 (even though many people fail to understand
this) is: Know Thyself!!!

Have fun in your quest. Dreaming about - and going about - selecting a
new-to-you glider is only slightly less fun than owning and flying it!

Bob W.

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At 16:21 12 February 2018, BobW wrote:

I agree with everyone who suggests the trailer is as important as
the
glider. Easy rigging and transport is paramount! Most will steer you
away from a glider that has only flaps. I would guess those who
say a
newer pilot shouldn't start with a flapped ship haven't spent much
time
in one, they have many advantages and can be purchased at
better prices
and are no more difficult to fly than spoilers. They are just a little
different. A PIK 20B is a stellar ship that can be bought pretty
cheap
and you won't ever outgrow it unless you just want 3% more
performance
for 3 times the money.

Some poor advice been given here. Libelle and Pik 20b - two ships
that
Derek Piggot advises a low time pilot to stay clear of for various
reasons. Unless you have way above average skills I would advise
you stay

clear of them as well until you have built up several hundred hours..

Suggest you read Derek Piggott on Gliding. A & C Black ISBN 0-
7136-5799-5. Lots of sound advice on what ship to choose for a first
glider
from one of the worlds most experienced and respected instructors.

Here's "another country heard from..."

Believe it or not, there's only one sentence between both the above
posts
with
which I would quibble, and it's the lead-in to the bottom post. So how
do I

reconcile what at first blush appears outright contradictory inputs?

Disclosures:
- I've not had the pleasure of meeting Derek Piggot, but I have great
respect
for his experience in, and judgments concerning, all aspects of soaring.
- I am not a CFIG.
- I (and my ship partner at the time) transitioned into a 15-meter
glass
1st-generation landing-flap-only-equipped glider (Concept 70 - think
flapped
G-102-ish), me from 1-26 with ~125 logged total hours (he from a Ka-
8 with,
I
seem to remember, ~the same total hours, maybe slightly more). Our
first
exposures to flapped gliders...
- Since that low-time transition I've acquired 2K+ hours in 3 different
types
of landing-flaps-only single-seaters.

Both our transitions were of the "nothing to see here" sort for our
peanut
galleries. Why? Because - it seemed important to me then, and so I
still
believe - we both had spent considerable time
discussing/researching/pondering
our impending "step up in performance" and we both flew with
"sensibly
developed plans." By "plans," I mean both hopes for success and
contingency

plans in the event some of our thinking proved less than spot-on. It
was
the
best we could do at that time and place - no 2-seat training gliders
with
similar flaps (or *any* flaps) existed, and no instructors with flapped
time
were known/available to us. Mental prep matters.

YMWV depending upon situation, attitude, inclinations, etc. I presume
the
asking of this question on RAS is part of your planned self-education
process.
Tangentially, just in case you've not already begun doing so, use the
self-education process to hone your critical thinking skills. In short,
try
to
get inside every advice-giver's head to the extent of being able to gain
some
insight into *why* they are offering you their advice. It, too, matters.

When Derek Piggot initially offered the advice referred to above, he
was an

active, full-time instructor in Great Britain, a smallish country (by
comparison to the U.S.), with a relatively high density (compared to
the
U.S.)
of available used gliders, but a glider population even less dense that
the

U.S.' with flapped single-seat gliders available for new pilots. (Over
here,
Dick Schreder had been proselytizing flaps by creating flapped ships
for
over
a decade before the PIK-20 appeared, and even Schweizer was so bold
as to
develop the 1-35 at roughly the same time as the PIK 20.) Piggot's
advice
was
both understandable and sensible. But I'd bet Real Money Mr. Piggot
would
also
readily agree "one size doesn't fit everyone" when it comes to new ship
purchase decisions.

What I've personally experienced many times, over 3+ decades of
being a
soaring nut, is many soaring pilots offering "anti-flaps advice" have
"less

than first-hand knowledge/experience with them." That's entirely
understandable, given the relatively low percentage of flapped gliders,
and

the even *lower* proportion of landing-flap-only equipped gliders, and
every
glider pilot's willingness (eagerness, ha ha!) to talk gliders/gliding at
the
slightest excuse. Depending upon one's personal flavor of internal
cynic,
an
argument could be made that all advice from 2nd-hand sources should
be
outright dismissed. OTOH, an argument could be made that those with
1st-hand
experience have axes to grind. I submit "actionable reality" lies
somewhere

between those extremes.

New Ship Purchasing Rule No. 1 (even though many people fail to
understand
this) is: Know Thyself!!!

Have fun in your quest. Dreaming about - and going about - selecting
a
new-to-you glider is only slightly less fun than owning and flying it!

Bob W.

---
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http://www.avg.com



If you wish to ignore the sage advice of one of the most professional and
experienced instructors in the world, (plus display pilot, film stunt pilot

ect. ect.), who has probably flown more types of aircraft than most
pilots (including flapped only ships) - your choice.

Sorry don't know Bob W's credentials apart from what he's posted here.

Well Paul T, I've read all of Derricks written works, no doubt good info there, but when it comes to his opinion of flapped sailplanes, I'll go with others with just as much if not more experience than his. Guys like Moffatt. You would get a very different opinion of the ease and safety of landing flapped ships if you read his flight evaluation of the HP-14.

All that is needed is a proper understanding/briefing of how flapped ships are handled in landing (much different than spoilered birds). If a newer pilot is desirous of getting into cross country flying, a flapped ship is a very very good choice and a confidence builder, knowing that even in the hands of a less experienced pilot , they can be safely shoe horned into very small fields.

At 02:37 13 February 2018, wrote:
Well Paul T, I've read all of Derricks written works, no doubt good
info
th=
ere, but when it comes to his opinion of flapped sailplanes, I'll go
with
o=
thers with just as much if not more experience than his. Guys like
Moffatt.=
You would get a very different opinion of the ease and safety of
landing
f=
lapped ships if you read his flight evaluation of the HP-14.

All that is needed is a proper understanding/briefing of how
flapped
ships=
are handled in landing (much different than spoilered birds). If a
newer
p=
ilot is desirous of getting into cross country flying, a flapped ship is
a
=
very very good choice and a confidence builder, knowing that even
in the
ha=
nds of a less experienced pilot , they can be safely shoe horned
into very
=
small fields.


Have 200 hours plus in a high performance plain flapped ship
thanks. My advice stands for a low time pilot.

This in response to an earlier post of mine...

If you wish to ignore the sage advice of one of the most professional and
experienced instructors in the world, (plus display pilot, film stunt
pilot ect. ect.), who has probably flown more types of aircraft than most pilots
(including flapped only ships) - your choice.

We-l-l...I suspect we can agree:
- all free advice is worth - at the very least - exactly what is paid for it;
- everyone is free/welcome to make their own choices in life, and, to accept
personal responsibility for the resulting consequences.

Were it possible for me to do, I'd bet money on:
- Derek Piggott agreeing his general advice about which I posted earlier was
never intended to be "absolutely correct." Stated another way, I'll
characterize it as great advice, based on tons of personal/instructing
experience, soundly reasoned and likely "generally spot on" for its time and
place (ostensibly Great Britain, in the mid 1970s).

I *suspect* Mr. Piggott would readily agree his goal as an instructor was less
to turn out unthinking automatons programmed to do only exactly as he
proposed, than to ensure his (and all) students were thoroughly grounded in
the fundamentals, while simultaneously being educated/thoughtfully-prepared to
safely embark on soaring's life-enriching, unavoidably self-educational,
adventures. Gratifying adventures...though simultaneously and also
unavoidably, potentially deadly. If I'm wrong in this particular surmise, then
I'm OK with agreeing to disagree with the man.

Respectfully,
Bob - from the "Life is Nuanced" school of thought - W.

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