Minimum number of flights for winch sign off?

On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 09:21:00 -0800, son_of_flubber wrote:

Here's another interesting winch site: Edensoaring in the British Lake
District. Its a shortish winch-only site about 2.5km from the closest
soarable part of the Pennines. If the hill is working in a westerly, the
wind is pretty much fully cross-wind and in an easterly the rotor tends
to set up above the field.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PcCzolzkYQ8

In a westerly launch failures are unusual because you turn 135 degrees
right, INTO the wind for abbreviated downwind and base legs. Why?
Because there are trees along the east (uphill) side of the strip.



--

The Eden site is interesting, but I did not post anything about it.

I hear that there is winch launching site on the North Island in New Zealand that routinely does 2000+ winch launches that drop you into rotor. You use the rotor to climb into wave. I'd want to ease into that with a local CFI before soloing.

On Tue, 13 Feb 2018 13:24:52 -0800, son_of_flubber wrote:

The Eden site is interesting, but I did not post anything about it.

Yep, I know you didn't - and nor has anybody else recently. I've visited
it a couple of times and posted the vid link because its a different
place to fly and a reasonably challenging winch site for me too: on my
last visit I got the mandatory site check ride and a winch failure
despite having been there before, because that was three years previously.

I fly in flat east England, usually winching off a 1300m x 175m grass
runway. We have GR400 Robins as tow planes but I prefer winching.

I hear that there is winch launching site on the North Island in New
Zealand that routinely does 2000+ winch launches that drop you into
rotor. You use the rotor to climb into wave. I'd want to ease into
that with a local CFI before soloing.

Yes, I know where that is, but haven't flown from it. I visited that club
in 2003, before they left Paraparaumu, a multiple use airfield surrounded
by houses and aero-tow only. That was where I flew a PW-5 (my only flight
in one) and had my first flight in a Libelle.


--

If things go wrong on the winch, they go wrong really fast. Suggest some refresher training if any of the following change: winch, aircraft, location.. The exact number of flights required to sign off depends on the student and the instructor. Ground school component is really important in winch launch training.

At 3:40 on that Eden soaring vid, they are going into land. My question is how do you find the airfield? Everything looks exactly alike!

On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 14:53:27 UTC, Waveguru wrote:
What would be the consensus for the minimum number of flights to get a ground launch sign off for an experienced glider pilot? How many cable breaks and at what altitude? Of course it would take more for some and less for others, but I would think at least 15 launches with 5 cable breaks at various heights?

Boggs

Basic principles of instruction:
-- ground briefing
-- instructor demonstration
-- student attempt

Winch launch failure instruction:
-- full climb, low level, land ahead
-- full climb, higher up, can't land ahead
-- full climb, random height, gradual power failure

That's a minimum of 6 launch failures. Where I'm from we also do an initial climb launch failure (pre full climb), instructor demo only (more training accidents than real accidents.) So that's an absolute minimum of 7 instructional launch failures.

The good news is that winch launching is really easy, easier than aerotowing. A competent pilot will learn to winch launch in 4 or 5 flights, so your 15 launch suggestion is do-able, but I would include more launch failures. For ab initio training we do a lot more launch failures before and after solo, just to reinforce the "expect a launch failure every launch" mindset.

Currency is very important. The shape of the airfield will also affect safety, a nice big round grass airfield will be very different to a commercial airfield.

On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 8:36:27 PM UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
At 3:40 on that Eden soaring vid, they are going into land. My question is how do you find the airfield? Everything looks exactly alike!

My first glider club in the UK was hard to find. Pilots told us they never saw it after overflying the area. One member got lost over the top and landed in an adjacent field. 800yard turf main and 600yard turf cross in the middle of barley fields. There were 50ft white chalk circles at the ends of the runways that sort of worked. Returning home from cross countries, we'd just follow the Peterborough to Colchester Roman road (only straight line around) until we could see Hadleigh over the nose. The gliderport would then be off the port wing. Local knowledge was pretty useful.

Frank Whiteley

On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 8:42:33 PM UTC-7, b4soaring wrote:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 14:53:27 UTC, Waveguru wrote:
What would be the consensus for the minimum number of flights to get a ground launch sign off for an experienced glider pilot? How many cable breaks and at what altitude? Of course it would take more for some and less for others, but I would think at least 15 launches with 5 cable breaks at various heights?

Boggs

Basic principles of instruction:
-- ground briefing
-- instructor demonstration
-- student attempt

Winch launch failure instruction:
-- full climb, low level, land ahead
-- full climb, higher up, can't land ahead
-- full climb, random height, gradual power failure

That's a minimum of 6 launch failures. Where I'm from we also do an initial climb launch failure (pre full climb), instructor demo only (more training accidents than real accidents.) So that's an absolute minimum of 7 instructional launch failures.

The good news is that winch launching is really easy, easier than aerotowing. A competent pilot will learn to winch launch in 4 or 5 flights, so your 15 launch suggestion is do-able, but I would include more launch failures.. For ab initio training we do a lot more launch failures before and after solo, just to reinforce the "expect a launch failure every launch" mindset.

Currency is very important. The shape of the airfield will also affect safety, a nice big round grass airfield will be very different to a commercial airfield.

I PM'D Gary at first. I agree with the above, though I would suggest that about 20 is the right number. Before emergencies, 5-6 'normal' launches so that the pilot understands what they are trying to achieve consistently. Then work on the 'breaks' and post break options and gotchas. Then a few more consistency checks and speed up, slow down signalling. Wing rock is deprecated. These exercises also keep winch drivers on their toes. I can often tell from the winch who is flying the two-seaters by the way they rotate and their climb attitude to 400-500 feet.

Frank Whiteley

On Wednesday, February 14, 2018 at 8:33:19 AM UTC+3, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 8:36:27 PM UTC-7, Nick Kennedy wrote:
At 3:40 on that Eden soaring vid, they are going into land. My question is how do you find the airfield? Everything looks exactly alike!

My first glider club in the UK was hard to find. Pilots told us they never saw it after overflying the area. One member got lost over the top and landed in an adjacent field. 800yard turf main and 600yard turf cross in the middle of barley fields. There were 50ft white chalk circles at the ends of the runways that sort of worked. Returning home from cross countries, we'd just follow the Peterborough to Colchester Roman road (only straight line around) until we could see Hadleigh over the nose. The gliderport would then be off the port wing. Local knowledge was pretty useful.

Wellington Gliding Club has always been pretty easy to find!

Old site (50+ years until 2016):
1) locate Kapiti Island, 9 km x 2 km x 1700 ft high, 5 km offshore from a small peninsular/bump in the coast.
2) the airfield is 1 km inland, in the middle of the bump.

New site (since 2016):
1) locate an apple orchid covered by bright white plastic, roughly a triangle with sides 1 km, 1 km, 1.5 km. Easily visible from 50+ km away.
2) 500m SE is a river. The main runway is next to the river, extending 2 km to the NE to a 90 degree bend in the river. Another river joins near opposite the midpoint of the runway.

On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 10:45:18 PM UTC-7, Frank Whiteley wrote:
On Tuesday, February 13, 2018 at 8:42:33 PM UTC-7, b4soaring wrote:
On Tuesday, 13 February 2018 14:53:27 UTC, Waveguru wrote:
What would be the consensus for the minimum number of flights to get a ground launch sign off for an experienced glider pilot? How many cable breaks and at what altitude? Of course it would take more for some and less for others, but I would think at least 15 launches with 5 cable breaks at various heights?

Boggs

Basic principles of instruction:
-- ground briefing
-- instructor demonstration
-- student attempt

Winch launch failure instruction:
-- full climb, low level, land ahead
-- full climb, higher up, can't land ahead
-- full climb, random height, gradual power failure

That's a minimum of 6 launch failures. Where I'm from we also do an initial climb launch failure (pre full climb), instructor demo only (more training accidents than real accidents.) So that's an absolute minimum of 7 instructional launch failures.

The good news is that winch launching is really easy, easier than aerotowing. A competent pilot will learn to winch launch in 4 or 5 flights, so your 15 launch suggestion is do-able, but I would include more launch failures. For ab initio training we do a lot more launch failures before and after solo, just to reinforce the "expect a launch failure every launch" mindset.