2018 - AN EXCITING YEAR

At 13:44 14 February 2018, Kevin Neave wrote:
I think the emphasis was on *affordable*

A new K21, DG1000, or Perkoz are all around 80-85k Euro.
Plus VAT
Plus trailer
Plus Instruments

This means it's unlikely that you'd get a new 2-seater in the UK for muc
less than 120k GBP

There doesn't seem to be much in the way of suitable 2nd hand ab-initi
trainers around at the moment

KN


At 13:20 14 February 2018, Kiwi User wrote:
On Wed, 14 Feb 2018 03:58:51 -0800, AS wrote:


Any new affordable trainers to replace the aging fleet of 2-33,
TwinAstir or K21 models on the horizon? Without them, we are just
rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic!
Uli 'AS'


PW6

On Wednesday, February 14, 2018 at 8:45:07 AM UTC-5, Kevin Neave wrote:
I think the emphasis was on *affordable*

A new K21, DG1000, or Perkoz are all around 80-85k Euro.
Plus VAT
Plus trailer
Plus Instruments

This means it's unlikely that you'd get a new 2-seater in the UK for much
less than 120k GBP

There doesn't seem to be much in the way of suitable 2nd hand ab-initio
trainers around at the moment

KN


At 13:20 14 February 2018, Kiwi User wrote:
On Wed, 14 Feb 2018 03:58:51 -0800, AS wrote:


Any new affordable trainers to replace the aging fleet of 2-33,
TwinAstir or K21 models on the horizon? Without them, we are just
rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic!
Uli 'AS'



Kevin - you got it!
There is nothing wrong with the TwinII or the K21 except most TwinIIs in the US are essentially single seat gliders with a large luggage compartment due to multiple repairs while the K21s are few and far between and when one comes up for sale, it still costs a fortune.
We need an affordable, well performing fiberglass trainer that prepares future pilots for the V3, D3, etc.
Uli
'AS'

Or go back to dragging students just above the ground in open primary type gliders...

At 18:17 14 February 2018, AS wrote:
On Wednesday, February 14, 2018 at 8:45:07 AM UTC-5, Kevin Neave
wrote:
I think the emphasis was on *affordable*
=20
A new K21, DG1000, or Perkoz are all around 80-85k Euro.
Plus VAT
Plus trailer
Plus Instruments
=20
This means it's unlikely that you'd get a new 2-seater in the UK for
much
less than 120k GBP
=20
There doesn't seem to be much in the way of suitable 2nd hand ab-
initio
trainers around at the moment
=20
KN
=20
=20
At 13:20 14 February 2018, Kiwi User wrote:
On Wed, 14 Feb 2018 03:58:51 -0800, AS wrote:

=20
Any new affordable trainers to replace the aging fleet of 2-33,
TwinAstir or K21 models on the horizon? Without them, we are
just
rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic!
Uli 'AS'



Kevin - you got it!
There is nothing wrong with the TwinII or the K21 except most TwinIIs
in
th=
e US are essentially single seat gliders with a large luggage
compartment
d=
ue to multiple repairs while the K21s are few and far between and
when one
=
comes up for sale, it still costs a fortune.
We need an affordable, well performing fiberglass trainer that prepares
fut=
ure pilots for the V3, D3, etc.
Uli
'AS'


PW 6

At 18:17 14 February 2018, AS wrote:

Kevin - you got it!
There is nothing wrong with the TwinII or the K21 except most
TwinIIs in the US are essentially single seat gliders with a large
luggage compartment due to multiple repairs while the K21s are
few and far between and when one comes up for sale, it still costs
a fortune. We need an affordable, well performing fiberglass
trainer that prepares future pilots for the V3, D3, etc.

Uli

'AS'

-----------------------------------------------------
That's why my brother and I have been importing Twin 1's.

-They can still be had for a reasonable cost.

-Handling is improved if one puts STC approved Z-Tape in front
of the control surfaces.

-L/D = 38/1 - better than Twin II or ASK-21, and qualifies with
insurance companies for pilots wanting to fly higher performance
gliders. 38/1 is the cut-off, so Twin II and ASK-21 don't qualify.
Twin 1 actually climbs better too, as it can comfortably fly slower
than the Twin II.

- payload of 506 Lbs (NDH of course) allows for 66 Lbs of damage
repairs before one ever even gets down to the 440 Lbs NEW NDH
payload of a Twin II !!

-12,000 hour service life compared to 5-6K hours on Blaniks.
(and then go try and get any kind of factory support for a
Blanik in the USA - good luck...)

_LTB Lindner in Germany has taken over all Grob glider patents,
rights, molds, dies, spare parts, STC, etc. They provide pretty
much "factory" service. If they don't have a spare part on hand,
they can make one, so there is good service support available.

-The Twin 1's were to a large extent the "DUO" discus of their day.
Most training was done in Ka-7's and ASK-13's. The Twin 1's were
often "sacred cows" which only the best pilots got to fly on XC
training, etc. So, percentage wise, Twin 1's generally have been
more pampered and less damaged than the Twin II's which were
put right into the training routine with accompanying breakage.

Yes, ground handling is harder due to the tail dolly, etc. Yes,
the back seat has the gear well protruding into the seat area
which takes some arranging of cushions in order to get
comfortable. Yes, the controls are a little stiff, (commensurate
with a 1970's era 17m glider) but can be made noticeably more
effective with the use of Z-Tape But for us, the positives far
outweigh the negatives, and our club has found that this is a
solution which we can live with comfortably. We currently operate
between 2 and 3 Twin 1's at any given time. Every time we think
of an ASK-21, or DUO, we come back to saying that we can have
2-3 Twin 1's for the price of one of those newer gliders.

RO

With respect to flight training, we could also consider using simulation to perform the 80% of glider flight training for which it is perfectly adequate (in fact, in many ways highly superior). This would allow clubs / commercial operations to concentration their limited financial resources on the acquisition and maintenance of far fewer (e.g. one), but much nicer (DG1000, ASK-21, etc.) actual aircraft.

Respectfully submitted for your consideration,

Scott Manley - 316716CFI
a.k.a. The Condor Guy

On Friday, February 16, 2018 at 6:00:28 AM UTC-7, wrote:
With respect to flight training, we could also consider using simulation to perform the 80% of glider flight training for which it is perfectly adequate (in fact, in many ways highly superior). This would allow clubs / commercial operations to concentration their limited financial resources on the acquisition and maintenance of far fewer (e.g. one), but much nicer (DG1000, ASK-21, etc.) actual aircraft.

Respectfully submitted for your consideration,

Scott Manley - 316716CFI
a.k.a. The Condor Guy

During my days as a flight instructor at Embry Riddle, they had the same idea that simulators could replace much of the private pilot training. A test program was started under Part 142 rules, level 7 visual sims (aka the Puke Machine) was used. After the third C172 suffered heavy damage from a landing accident (no injuries), they went away from that idea pretty fast.

Sims have their place, but nowhere close to 80%.

Depends a lot on the quality of the simulation, the instructional program, and the competence & motivation of the flight instructors.

The airlines fully qualify pilots in simulators, essentially reaching 100%.

I was actually low-balling with my 80% figure. My experience using simulation-based flight training (Condor) is better than 80%.

Back to the discussion of two-seat trainers that are available. My club has ordered two ASK-21B's for arrival in Oct/Nov. At that time our two 2008 ASK-21's will be for sale. Factory PU finish and no trailer, although we do have a Cobra trailer that can be used for round-trip if you don't have one.

For those that are now wondering - what is a K21B - it has automatic control hook-ups and a larger cockpit to account for the growth of the human species since the original design in the mid-70's.

On Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 12:42:17 PM UTC-7, wrote:

The airlines fully qualify pilots in simulators, essentially reaching 100%.

A bit overstated.

After 6-8 sessions in a full motion Level D sim and the Check Ride airline pilots require 20-40 hours Initial Operating Experience in the airplane under the supervision of a Check Airman before being "finished" and signed off for line operations.

The flight footprint is often larger than the sim footprint.

And then if the new airline pilot fails to gain 100 flight hours within 90 days of the simulator check ride (IOE counts towards this), the entire training process must be repeated - FAA requirement.

But most importantly, airline pilots are not primary students.

Understand I'm not downing your product. Sims have their place. Primary students need to actually fly and land the real aircraft too.