RV-7a baggage area

On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 09:59:10 -0600, Russell Kent
wrote:

Dave S wrote:

And hence we have ANOTHER person who cannot tell the difference between
MASS and VOLUME.

I feel your frustration.

And.. whats sad is.. the person who said 100 pounds probably thought
they were being helpful by pointing out something "obvious"

Dave

Those that point out the mistakes of others would do well to mind their
own.

Heed your own advice, fool.

Pounds (lbs.) are a measure of weight, not mass (which in the English
system would be slugs).

Where'd you get that idea?

Gene Nygaard
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Gene_Nygaard/
Gentlemen of the jury, Chicolini here may look like an idiot,
and sound like an idiot, but don't let that fool you: He
really is an idiot.
Groucho Marx

Russell Kent wrote:

Those that point out the mistakes of others would do well to mind their own.

Gene Nygaard responded:

Heed your own advice, fool.

On entirely too many occasions I am indeed a fool, but I don't see where
devolving to name calling improves the conversation. Besides gently (IMHO)
chastising the intervening poster's rant, I still provided a useful answer to
the original poster's question (12+ cu. ft.) and a reference to the source.

Russell Kent continued:

Pounds (lbs.) are a measure of weight, not mass (which in the English system
would be slugs).

Gene Nygaard responded:

Where'd you get that idea?

Uh, 2 years of high school physics (a jillion years ago). Perhaps a few web
references will help clear the cobwebs:

http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Slug.html

http://www.physics.ucla.edu/k-6connection/Mass,w,d.htm

Russell Kent

OK, I know it's bad form to follow-up one's own posting. So sue me. :-)

Gene,
I see from your signature that this "weight vs. mass" thing is a personal windmill
for you. Fine. And I see that slug isn't used anymore (pound-force is the term
now). And for non-technical conversations, pound is a unit of mass.

Here's a question though: is this forum a technical or non-technical conversation?

And look at the sequence of postings: EUTNET wrote that the baggage area dimension
was 100 lbs, obviously meaning *weight*, and Dave S. complained that EUTNET
"cannot tell the difference between MASS and VOLUME." [emphasis Dave's] So I
believe Dave should have instead written "WEIGHT and VOLUME."

Now I suspect that Dave S. was merely careless and really does understand the
difference between mass and weight, and I was trying to gently pass along the
advice that newsgroup corrections are invariably inspected for even the slightest
error (see this thread!). I welcome you (Gene) jumping in at that point to
correct the whole weight vs. mass, slugs, pound-force hullabalu, but I wish you'd
do it with a bit less hostility. Someone may well have ****ed in your cornflakes,
but I assure you it wasn't me. :-)

Russell Kent

Russell Kent wrote:

Russell Kent wrote:

Those that point out the mistakes of others would do well to mind their own.

Gene Nygaard responded:

Heed your own advice, fool.

On entirely too many occasions I am indeed a fool, but I don't see where
devolving to name calling improves the conversation. Besides gently (IMHO)
chastising the intervening poster's rant, I still provided a useful answer to
the original poster's question (12+ cu. ft.) and a reference to the source.

Russell Kent continued:

Pounds (lbs.) are a measure of weight, not mass (which in the English system
would be slugs).

Gene Nygaard responded:

Where'd you get that idea?

Uh, 2 years of high school physics (a jillion years ago). Perhaps a few web
references will help clear the cobwebs:

http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Slug.html

http://www.physics.ucla.edu/k-6connection/Mass,w,d.htm

Russell Kent

On Mon, 08 Dec 2003 15:02:03 -0600, Russell Kent
wrote:

Russell Kent wrote:

Those that point out the mistakes of others would do well to mind their own.

Gene Nygaard responded:

Heed your own advice, fool.

On entirely too many occasions I am indeed a fool, but I don't see where
devolving to name calling improves the conversation.

I see that even that wasn't enough to get your attention, Chicolini.

How big a bat do I need to hit you over the head with to get your
attention?


Besides gently (IMHO)
chastising the intervening poster's rant, I still provided a useful answer to
the original poster's question (12+ cu. ft.) and a reference to the source.

Yes, you got that right. Too bad nobody will pat you on the back for
it, because you obscured it with irrelevant nonsense, and even worse,
an incorrect claim of error on someone else's part.

Russell Kent continued:

Pounds (lbs.) are a measure of weight, not mass (which in the English system
would be slugs).

Gene Nygaard responded:

Where'd you get that idea?

Uh, 2 years of high school physics (a jillion years ago). Perhaps a few web
references will help clear the cobwebs:

If you found those references, you also found many that got it right.

http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Slug.html

Slugs are units of mass. That's not what I'm calling you on.

But that little-used 20th century invention, which didn't even appear
in physics textbooks before 1940, are by no stretch of the imagination
_the_ units of mass in "the English system."

Pounds force also exist, but that's also beside the point.

Back up your claim that pounds are not units of mass. That's where
you falsely claimed that Dave S. was making an error.

--
Gene Nygaard
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Gene_Nygaard/
"It's not the things you don't know
what gets you into trouble.

"It's the things you do know
that just ain't so."
Will Rogers

Gene Nygaard wrote:

I see that even that wasn't enough to get your attention, Chicolini.

OK, you got me there. Haven't a clue who Chicolini is. Should I be insulted? Do
you now feel better having insulted me?

How big a bat do I need to hit you over the head with to get your
attention?

Clear, intelligent statements usually work.

Besides gently (IMHO)
chastising the intervening poster's rant, I still provided a useful answer to
the original poster's question (12+ cu. ft.) and a reference to the source.

Yes, you got that right. Too bad nobody will pat you on the back for
it,

(I don't care)

because you obscured it with irrelevant nonsense,

Irrelevant? Wasn't to me. Nonsense? Um, nope.

and even worse, an incorrect claim of error on someone else's part.

Perhaps.

Uh, 2 years of high school physics (a jillion years ago). Perhaps a few web
references will help clear the cobwebs:

If you found those references, you also found many that got it right.

I just grabbed a few that looked to get to the point quickly.

http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/Slug.html

Slugs are units of mass. That's not what I'm calling you on.

It wasn't clear in your earlier hostile response.

But that little-used 20th century invention, which didn't even appear
in physics textbooks before 1940, are by no stretch of the imagination
_the_ units of mass in "the English system."

I'm sorry, you're correct. I didn't mean to imply that they are the only unit of
mass. I was taught (perhaps incorrectly) that the unambiguous term for weight
(scientific meaning) in the English system was "slugs". Apparently it's also
"pounds force" now (it may have been them, too, and I've just forgotten it).

Pounds force also exist, but that's also beside the point.

sarcasm Whew. Glad we're past that. /sarcasm

Back up your claim that pounds are not units of mass. That's where you falsely
claimed that Dave S. was making an error.

Actually, I intended only to claim that Dave S. incorrectly stated mass when he
should have stated weight. From my perspective, the respondent about whom Dave S.
was complaining clearly intended "lbs" as a unit of weight.

The reference to the slug as the English mass unit was only intended as an offhand
remark. Pounds are units of mass in casual (non-technical) conversations, and
probably shorthand for "pounds force" in technical conversations.

For the record, I don't claim that slugs are the only unit of mass in the English
system, and I'm sorry to have inadvertantly made that implication.

Russell Kent

Russell Kent wrote in :

Back up your claim that pounds are not units of mass. That's where
you falsely
claimed that Dave S. was making an error.

Actually, I intended only to claim that Dave S. incorrectly stated
mass when he should have stated weight. From my perspective, the
respondent about whom Dave S. was complaining clearly intended "lbs"
as a unit of weight.


Gene is correct, although mass and weight are equal in the same
environment (i.e. good ole earth gravity) so really correcting someone
on that is akin to correcting spelling mistakes on use-net.... kind of
useless.

Lbs IS a measure of mass (to us "common" folk) IFF acceleration is
either identified or implied. i.e. My mass is 195lbs at earth sea
level. Most people would say then mass = weight and weight = mass.

BUT I would say most of us have had experience where that is not true.
If you've traveled on an airplane... or ... perhaps flown one grin,
the acceleration factor has been at least momentarily increased or
decreased... with maneuvering... so even though you weigh 200lbs before
the you stepped into the plane, when you banked into that 30 degree
turn, you probably weighed something like 250+, but your mass never
changed.... When I took physics, mass was measured in a.u.'s & I have
no idea what the a stands for, and I think the u just meant "unit"

Although I beleive the correction was a bit petty... The hostle response
was a bit uncalled for, especially since Gene was correct.

Here is a good link that explains:

http://www.nyu.edu/pages/mathmol/tex...ightvmass.html

ET


"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

Russell Kent wrote in message ...


I'm sorry, you're correct. I didn't mean to imply that they are the only unit of
mass. I was taught (perhaps incorrectly) that the unambiguous term for weight
(scientific meaning) in the English system was "slugs". Apparently it's also
"pounds force" now (it may have been them, too, and I've just forgotten it).

I think you mistyped. 'Slugs' are unambiguously a unit of mass.

Pounds are ambiguously a unit of force. Ambiguity exists because it
is popular in some disciplines to use a unit of mass defined (loosely)
as that mass which weighs one pound.

But you knew that.

--

FF

On 9 Dec 2003 10:34:34 -0800, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:

Russell Kent wrote in message ...


I'm sorry, you're correct. I didn't mean to imply that they are the only unit of
mass. I was taught (perhaps incorrectly) that the unambiguous term for weight
(scientific meaning) in the English system was "slugs". Apparently it's also
"pounds force" now (it may have been them, too, and I've just forgotten it).

I think you mistyped. 'Slugs' are unambiguously a unit of mass.

Pounds are ambiguously a unit of force. Ambiguity exists because it
is popular in some disciplines to use a unit of mass defined (loosely)
as that mass which weighs one pound.

But you knew that.

Well, now, in this fuzzy dreamworld you inhabit, what exactly is the
standard for a pound?

What is the nature of this standard? Something electrical, something
mechanical, or what?

Who made it the standard? When exactly was it made the standard (just
the year will do)?

Where is the standard kept, and who maintains it?

Now for the bonus question:

In addition to the system in which slugs are the units of mass, there
is another, much older English foot-pound-second system in which the
poundal is the derived unit of force. It is the force which will
accelerate the base unit of mass in this oldest English subsystem of
coherent mechanical units at a rate of 1 ft/s². Now, fill in the
blank, please: The base unit of mass in this oldest fps system is the
_____________. (Hint: it is the "p" in this fps system.)

When the poundal system was invented back around 1879, not only did
slugs not exist but also pounds force had never been well-defined
units. This was before anybody ever started picking some "standard
acceleration of gravity" which is an essential ingredient in the
definition of those pounds force. Even today, pounds force don't have
an official definition, at least in the United States. We often
borrow the value for the standard acceleration of gravity which is
official (adopted by the CGPM in 1901, long after the poundal system
was in use and the dyne system in cgs units) for the purpose of
defining kilograms force, i.e. 9.80665 m/s². But other values are
also used for this purpose, such as 32.16 ft/s² (you still commonly
see this used in ballistics with a formula for kinetic energy in a
foot-grain-pound force-second system E = m v²/450240).

--
Gene Nygaard
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Gene_Nygaard/
"It's not the things you don't know
what gets you into trouble.

"It's the things you do know
that just ain't so."
Will Rogers

Gene Nygaard wrote in message . ..

Channeling a curmudgeon for some reason - must be the fact that I've
been getting skunked by the weather for two weeks.


Well, now, in this fuzzy dreamworld you inhabit, what exactly is the
standard for a pound?

Probably the original standard was 1.397 the weekly average of the
King's morning BM.

What is the nature of this standard? Something electrical, something
mechanical, or what?

Scatalogical

Who made it the standard? When exactly was it made the standard (just
the year will do)?

The King, of course, who else? And of course it changed from
generation to generation, just like the inch.

Where is the standard kept, and who maintains it?

A silver "repository" in a palace somewhere.
Now for the bonus question:

In addition to the system in which slugs are the units of mass, there
is another, much older English foot-pound-second system in which the
poundal is the derived unit of force. It is the force which will
accelerate the base unit of mass in this oldest English subsystem of
coherent mechanical units at a rate of 1 ft/s². Now, fill in the
blank, please: The base unit of mass in this oldest fps system is the
_____________. (Hint: it is the "p" in this fps system.)

When the poundal system was invented back around 1879, not only did
slugs not exist but also pounds force had never been well-defined
units. This was before anybody ever started picking some "standard
acceleration of gravity" which is an essential ingredient in the
definition of those pounds force. Even today, pounds force don't have
an official definition, at least in the United States. We often
borrow the value for the standard acceleration of gravity which is
official (adopted by the CGPM in 1901, long after the poundal system
was in use and the dyne system in cgs units) for the purpose of
defining kilograms force, i.e. 9.80665 m/s². But other values are
also used for this purpose, such as 32.16 ft/s² (you still commonly
see this used in ballistics with a formula for kinetic energy in a
foot-grain-pound force-second system E = m v²/450240).


Let's keep it simple and just use kilograms x furlongs /
fortnight^2...

Gene Nygaard wrote in message . ..
On 9 Dec 2003 10:34:34 -0800, (Fred the Red
Shirt) wrote:

Russell Kent wrote in message ...


I'm sorry, you're correct. I didn't mean to imply that they are the only unit of
mass. I was taught (perhaps incorrectly) that the unambiguous term for weight
(scientific meaning) in the English system was "slugs". Apparently it's also
"pounds force" now (it may have been them, too, and I've just forgotten it).

I think you mistyped. 'Slugs' are unambiguously a unit of mass.

Pounds are ambiguously a unit of force. Ambiguity exists because it
is popular in some disciplines to use a unit of mass defined (loosely)
as that mass which weighs one pound.

But you knew that.

Well, now, in this fuzzy dreamworld you inhabit, what exactly is the
standard for a pound?


HFC? In what fuzzy dreamworld that you inhabit is a slug ambiguous
but the pound is not?

If I say that I weigh 165 lbs (I'd be lying but that's not relevent)
it is ambiguous if I mean pounds force or pounds mass. But if I
say that atmospheric pressure at sea level is 14.7 psi then I
unabiguously mean pounds force per square inch because pressure is
force per unit area.

If I say that I dropped a 15 slug rock on my foot that unambiguously
implies mass.

Is that really so hard to understand?

--

FF