Affect of Alcohol (Beer) on Soaring and Soaring Racing

Thanks - UH

It actually was a serious question - I just watched Free Solo - a guy focused on a extremely technical sport. Doesn't drink.

I also have been around several people with Olympic medals - it varies but most only drink at the very end of the competition season - for the reasons of better rest/recovery, focus and no desire to relax.

I have seen a few Kawa interviews and heard him say "If I see a competitor go for a beer, I know I can beat them" - I believe he thought it was more physiological.

I just thought it was an interesting topic and given that many Contest pilots read this - thought there may be data/information on the subject.

WH

Even when I drank (more than 30 years ago when I got into a big health thing), I hesitated to do so the night before flying and I'm not sure I ever did before or during a contest. Did it make a difference? No idea. It was one less thing to worry about.

I do know that Car & Driver magazine once did a test where they ran several of their experienced drivers through a slalom course repeatedly, timing each run, administering another drink, timing the next run, etc. Fairly closely controlled to allow the alcohol to get into their systems. IIRC, fastest times were generally after 1-2 drinks. Drivers were slightly slower when sober and their performance deteriorated rapidly after a few drinks, to the point where they started knocking over a lot of cones. The hypothesis was that these amateur (though race-experienced) drivers were a little less inhibited with a small amount of alcohol, but that more of it cost them judgment, response time, etc.

Not the same thing as for what we do, obviously.

Chip Bearden

Many years ago, in England at Motor Club monthly meeting at a nice country pub, as you entered a member had set up a reaction tester. Peered down a tube and when a light flashed pushed a button. Got two goes, set base line. Deal then was after two beers to repeat. Then all were collared for testing when we were thrown out at closing time (10:30 pm in them distant days).
Reaction times in general declined by 5+% after two beers and doubled by closing time. General reaction was shock. This was at the very beginning of awareness of drink and anything, not just driving.
I am always surprised how well attended (and supplied) bars still are at British gliding clubs.




On Tuesday, February 19, 2019 at 4:55:03 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Even when I drank (more than 30 years ago when I got into a big health thing), I hesitated to do so the night before flying and I'm not sure I ever did before or during a contest. Did it make a difference? No idea. It was one less thing to worry about.

I do know that Car & Driver magazine once did a test where they ran several of their experienced drivers through a slalom course repeatedly, timing each run, administering another drink, timing the next run, etc. Fairly closely controlled to allow the alcohol to get into their systems. IIRC, fastest times were generally after 1-2 drinks. Drivers were slightly slower when sober and their performance deteriorated rapidly after a few drinks, to the point where they started knocking over a lot of cones. The hypothesis was that these amateur (though race-experienced) drivers were a little less inhibited with a small amount of alcohol, but that more of it cost them judgment, response time, etc.

Not the same thing as for what we do, obviously.

Chip Bearden

Well, ask a serious question on r.a.s., and see whether you get any serious answers.... We could start keeping score.

Seriously, when researching material in 2018 for my SSA talk, "29 Ways to Make Yourself Stupid," I discovered two interesting factoids:

1: Most studies of alcohol-related performance study things like, Can he still walk and chew gum after 12 beers?
But I found one study of the effect on alcohol on *complex cognitive performance.* This study found that a single ounce of alcohol produced a measurable loss.
Frankly, most flying does not entail complex cognitive skill any more than does riding a bicycle -- but contest flying in primarily cognitive, the flying skill a given,.

2: Late effects of alcohol. I found only 2 studies asking how long the impairment lasts after drinking.
This is important because alcohol is metabolized to aldehyde (think:formaldehyde). Alcohol has a half-life of about 2 hours; aldehyde has a half-live of about 6 hours.
Both studies brought subjects' blood alcohol levels to 0.10mg% (the legal limit in many places), then retested their performance repeatedly over time. In both studies, impaired performance was still significant at the end of the observation period: 24 hours in one and 48 hours in the other.

My take from this is that if you get drunk, you are still impaired on Day 3, and we have *no* data showing when you may actually return to normal.

I am sure that many competitors have done their own experiments, and would explain why elite athletes often defer alcohol to the end of the season or campaign.

With activities that produce anxiety, alcohol may improve performance by decreasing anxiety. But there are safer drugs for that (none of which are recommended by aviation medical experts).

On Tuesday, February 19, 2019 at 2:39:11 PM UTC-6, wrote:

It actually was a serious question - I just watched Free Solo - a guy focused on a extremely technical sport. Doesn't drink.

I also have been around several people with Olympic medals - it varies but most only drink at the very end of the competition season - for the reasons of better rest/recovery, focus and no desire to relax.

I have seen a few Kawa interviews and heard him say "If I see a competitor go for a beer, I know I can beat them" - I believe he thought it was more physiological.

Thanks.... very interesting. Kawa's take on it would be interesting to hear since he is a MD - maybe if he does another interview we can ask him.

my uneducated felling is that your assumptions are pretty on point. Another data point that would be interesting is if your body is use to a few drinks a night and then you stop, what is the affect. I know there have been lots of info on work and the effect of Caffeine both for improvement and what happens during withdraw.

Your comment on R.A.S. - point taken - I am OK with a tad of Humor.... often a good thing LOL - but I do think it is a interesting subject -

From a Contest/Safety view.... how we fuel our body and the effect it has on Soaring is very interesting... at least to me LOL

WH

There is a study I saw years ago regarding performance of fighter pilots both drunk and hungover. IIRC this was done in Sweden at some point in the 80s. Couldn't find it with a quick google search, but this one did come up: "Using a repeated measures counterbalanced design, the authors had 10 Navy P3-C Orion pilots fly two carefully designed simulated flights under control (no hangover) and hangover conditions. For the control condition, pilots drank no alcohol within 48 hours before the simulated flight. For the hangover condition, they flew 14 hours after drinking enough ethanol mixed with diet soft drinks to attain a blood alcohol concentration of 100 mg/dl. Pilot performance was worse in the hangover condition on virtually all measures but significantly worse on three of six variance measures and one of six performance measures. The results indicate that caution should be exercised when piloting an aircraft 14 hours or less after ingesting similar quantities of alcohol."

On Wed, 20 Feb 2019 08:32:48 -0800, Papa3 wrote:

There is a study I saw years ago regarding performance of fighter pilots
both drunk and hungover. IIRC this was done in Sweden at some point in
the 80s. Couldn't find it with a quick google search, but this one did
come up: "Using a repeated measures counterbalanced design, the authors
had 10 Navy P3-C Orion pilots fly two carefully designed simulated
flights under control (no hangover) and hangover conditions. For the
control condition, pilots drank no alcohol within 48 hours before the
simulated flight. For the hangover condition, they flew 14 hours after
drinking enough ethanol mixed with diet soft drinks to attain a blood
alcohol concentration of 100 mg/dl. Pilot performance was worse in the
hangover condition on virtually all measures but significantly worse on
three of six variance measures and one of six performance measures. The
results indicate that caution should be exercised when piloting an
aircraft 14 hours or less after ingesting similar quantities of
alcohol.

Interesting, especially with the "8hrs bottle to throttle" quoted earlier.

FWIW, as one of those flying from a club with a well-stocked bar
(patronised after hangar packing is complete and everything put away),
I've always heard the safe post-alcohol no-fly time quoted as

"Twelve hours bottle to throttle"


--
Martin | martin at
Gregorie | gregorie dot org

On Thursday, February 21, 2019 at 5:32:51 AM UTC+13, Papa3 wrote:
snip

For the hangover condition, they flew 14 hours after drinking enough ethanol mixed with diet soft drinks to attain a blood alcohol concentration of 100 mg/dl.

A questionable study, if in fact the ethanol was "mixed with diet soft drinks" that contained aspartame (a confounding variable). Aspartame, according to retired food scientist Dr Woodrow Monte (a former neighbor of mine in the South Island), is the most dangerous food additive on the market today. It changes the ratio of amino acids in the blood, blocking or lowering the levels of serotonin, tyrosine, dopamine, norepinephrine, and adrenaline. Even though it is touted as natural, it has a synthetic methyl group on one of the amino acids that rapidly breaks down to methanol (wood alcohol). According to Dr Monte, methyl alcohol is metabolized differently in the human body compared to other animals, and is far more toxic in humans, which is why studies have trouble nailing down the hazards related to aspartame, because most rely on animal, not human studies. Methyl alcohol, after it is taken up by the body as a "Trojan horse" into susceptible tissues such as the brain, converts rapidly into formaldehyde, causing serious damage to proteins and DNA.

Fresh fruits and veggies contain minute amounts of methanol, but there's a natural mechanism that makes it harmless. Pectin firmly binds to methanol, allowing it to simply pass through your body and be excreted, because the human body does not have the enzymes to break that bond. If you or anyone you know drinks diet sodas (or uses NutraSweet, Equal, Spoonful, Equal-Measure), then have him or her look at Woody's website -- WhileScienceSleeps dot com. Or get a copy of his book, as I did -- While Science Sleeps, a Sweetener Kills.

And, for the record (being as I am P7 SCUM), Gary quaffs more of his own brew on both contest days and rest days than does any other competitor. Perhaps there's a *secret ingredient* in Papa 7 Brewery kegs that confers a competitive advantage.

Yes Gary does make great beer! Thanks Gary. I spent several years flying with the late "OF" in Phoenix and as both of us enjoyed a good "party" after flying we had more than a few discussions about the matter. And his take was that he tried it both ways and found that it made no difference in his personnel experience. He usually got into trouble for his antics while flying not drinking

CH

Alcohol may not improve your soaring but does help you deal with some of the insufferable contest pilots!

Mike