more radial fans like fw190?

"Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message
...
The Enlightenment wrote in message
...

I think the FW 190 installation was well studied. It was excellent. A
few
of the Typhoon/Tempest dervatives also used Germanic style radiators a'la
FW190D series and also achieved a speed improvement.

The Typhoon always used the chin radiator. It first flew about
9 months after the Fw190

The Typhoon "derivative", the Tempest used wing radiators in the
mark I, the fastest, a radial engine in the mark II, a chin radiator
in the mark V and a combination of chin and wing radiators for the
mark VI.

The Fury, the Tempest "derivative" used a radial engine.
Hawkers had a good look at the FW190 before the Fury
was designed.

Nothing like the radiator arrangement used in the FW190D series.

After the war Tempests were built, flown and tested with Germanic anular
radiators. This gave about a 20mph speed advantage over the chin
installation with the same sabre engine.



Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.

The Enlightenment wrote:
After the war Tempests were built, flown and tested with Germanic anular

Not to pick too many nits, but would you mind dropping the silly "Germanic"?
Hint: it is NOT the same as "German" - actually quite different.
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"Mailman" wrote in message
...
The Enlightenment wrote:
After the war Tempests were built, flown and tested with Germanic anular

Not to pick too many nits, but would you mind dropping the silly
"Germanic"?
Hint: it is NOT the same as "German" - actually quite different.

They did not use German radiators, they used German style annular radiators.
Presumably there was something special about the way they recovered waste
heat effectively.

That was the term used in what I think was an issue of Air-International on
the history of the type. So F you.




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"The Enlightenment" wrote in message
...

"Mailman" wrote in message
...
The Enlightenment wrote:
After the war Tempests were built, flown and tested with Germanic
anular

Not to pick too many nits, but would you mind dropping the silly
"Germanic"?
Hint: it is NOT the same as "German" - actually quite different.

They did not use German radiators, they used German style annular
radiators.
Presumably there was something special about the way they recovered waste
heat effectively.


They used them BEFORE they knew the Germans used them
and radiators are designed to get rid of heat, not recover it.
The reason for the testing was simply to try and reduce drag.
Annular radiators werent exctly a new idea. They hd been used
on numerous aircraft including the Ju-88 and Fiat CR-32

Keith





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"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

"The Enlightenment" wrote in message
...

"Mailman" wrote in message
...
The Enlightenment wrote:
After the war Tempests were built, flown and tested with Germanic
anular

Not to pick too many nits, but would you mind dropping the silly
"Germanic"?
Hint: it is NOT the same as "German" - actually quite different.

They did not use German radiators, they used German style annular
radiators.
Presumably there was something special about the way they recovered
waste
heat effectively.


They used them BEFORE they knew the Germans used them

Perhaps on the Typhoon IB. The article I alluded to talked of tests with
"Germanic style radiators" and I had the distinct impression this was late
or post war. Perhaps they were inspired to look at them again becuase they
restarted testing on the latest model from this series the Tempest V to see
if they could improve upon the chin intake. (The whole chronology of the
Tornado, Tempest,Typphoon series is extremely confusingly enumerated).
Perhaps they were inspired to review their work becuase of the success of
the German implementation.

Perhaps not.

Most engineering developement did not occur in a vacuum of theory but was
reactive to what the enemy was achieving. Though suprisingly arrogance was
such that both sides sometimes ignored each others better ideas. I can see
that tendancy in these NG in fact.

and radiators are designed to get rid of heat, not recover it.
The reason for the testing was simply to try and reduce drag.
Annular radiators werent exctly a new idea. They hd been used
on numerous aircraft including the Ju-88 and Fiat CR-32

Specifically I ostensibly mean't to say that the "German" annular radiators
recovered waste energy (in the form of engine heat) very effectively and
converted it to kinetic energy to obtain a small amount of thrust: usually
sufficient enough to overcome the drag of the installation.

The air enters the inlet, the area is increased which has the effect of
increasing pressure and slowing the air down, the air is then heated by the
radiator which has the effect of expanding it and accelerating it, the cross
sectional area is then decreased slightly usualy by some type of adjustable
flap arrangement so that it is ejected slightly faster than it entered.
This produces thrust according to the formmula: mass flow x (exhaust
velocity - inlet velocity)

It isn't the annular radiator that does this but the combination of inlet,
interanl cowling and the hot air exhaust. The annular arrangement simply
allows this to be implemented very effectively.

The Spitfire, Me 109 also did this quite well but not so effectively. The
P51 had a famous installation that was reputedly very effective but also
very vulnerable due to the long plumbing runs. It is very difficult to get
this correct: the japanese had great difficulty with their liscence produced
Daimler Benz engines despite help from the Germans.

The advantage of the annular installation was that the engine eg Jumo 213,
DB603 etc could be produced in a 'power egg' that was easy to manufacture
and exchange on aircraft even with radials . The German engines had common
mounting points. British engines also did this which is why you sometimes
saw Merlins and Bristol radials exchanged on Beaufighters, Lancasters etc.

The minimised plumbing and the ease of armouring also gave advantages to the
annular arrangement in battle damage tollerance.

The radial installations were not regarded as anywhere near as effective as
liquid cooled ones. The NACA cowling introduced over radials in the late
1920s reduced drag by minimising turbulence over the cylinder heads.

On the BMW801 installation on the FW190A the ram effect as used on liquid
cooled engines was used with great effect for the first time on a radial
engine; the necessary small inlet being obtained by a geared fan. In
addition the exhausts were piped in such a way that they gave not only gaved
jet thrust but and an ejector induction effect and helped increase airflow
through the engine.

Thus the BMW/FW190 installation shattered illusions that water cooled
engines were always going to be faster. (they seem to have been about 15mph
in the 470mph region when P47M was compared to Spitefull and P51H)

So to clarity. It wasn't so much the annular intake but the way the air was
handelled before and after this annular intake. The annular arrangement
seems to have been more effective than the chin arrangement in neatly
integrating into the airframe and taking advantage of this ram effect becaue
Napiers tests showed such an improvement. The annular radiators had been
tested after work had already comenced on the standard chin installation.

What few images I have seem to show that there seens to have been a
significant geometrical change or refinement in inlet Geometry seen on the
Jumo 211 of the Ju 88 and the Jumo 213 of late model Ju 88s, Ta 152s.




Keith





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"The Enlightenment" wrote in message
...

"Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message
...
The Enlightenment wrote in message
...

I think the FW 190 installation was well studied. It was excellent.
A
few
of the Typhoon/Tempest dervatives also used Germanic style radiators
a'la
FW190D series and also achieved a speed improvement.

The Typhoon always used the chin radiator. It first flew about
9 months after the Fw190

The Typhoon "derivative", the Tempest used wing radiators in the
mark I, the fastest, a radial engine in the mark II, a chin radiator
in the mark V and a combination of chin and wing radiators for the
mark VI.

The Fury, the Tempest "derivative" used a radial engine.
Hawkers had a good look at the FW190 before the Fury
was designed.

Nothing like the radiator arrangement used in the FW190D series.

After the war Tempests were built, flown and tested with Germanic anular
radiators. This gave about a 20mph speed advantage over the chin
installation with the same sabre engine.



As I recall Napier's designed and tested several different types of annular
radiator annular radiator for the Sabre and tested it on a Typhoon IB
and a Tempest V

None were chosen for production.

Keith




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"Keith Willshaw" wrote in message
...

"The Enlightenment" wrote in message
...

"Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message
...
The Enlightenment wrote in message
...

I think the FW 190 installation was well studied. It was excellent.
A
few
of the Typhoon/Tempest dervatives also used Germanic style radiators
a'la
FW190D series and also achieved a speed improvement.

The Typhoon always used the chin radiator. It first flew about
9 months after the Fw190

The Typhoon "derivative", the Tempest used wing radiators in the
mark I, the fastest, a radial engine in the mark II, a chin radiator
in the mark V and a combination of chin and wing radiators for the
mark VI.

The Fury, the Tempest "derivative" used a radial engine.
Hawkers had a good look at the FW190 before the Fury
was designed.

Nothing like the radiator arrangement used in the FW190D series.

After the war Tempests were built, flown and tested with Germanic anular
radiators. This gave about a 20mph speed advantage over the chin
installation with the same sabre engine.



As I recall Napier's designed and tested several different types of
annular
radiator annular radiator for the Sabre and tested it on a Typhoon IB
and a Tempest V

None were chosen for production.

Keith


That's because production of the entire typhoon tempest line ceased after
the war.

Some Photos he
http://user.tninet.se/~ytm843e/annular.htm

The Enlightenment wrote in message ...

"Geoffrey Sinclair" wrote in message
...
The Enlightenment wrote in message
...

I think the FW 190 installation was well studied. It was excellent. A
few
of the Typhoon/Tempest dervatives also used Germanic style radiators a'la
FW190D series and also achieved a speed improvement.

The Typhoon always used the chin radiator. It first flew about
9 months after the Fw190

The Typhoon "derivative", the Tempest used wing radiators in the
mark I, the fastest, a radial engine in the mark II, a chin radiator
in the mark V and a combination of chin and wing radiators for the
mark VI.

The Fury, the Tempest "derivative" used a radial engine.
Hawkers had a good look at the FW190 before the Fury
was designed.

Nothing like the radiator arrangement used in the FW190D series.

After the war Tempests were built, flown and tested with Germanic anular
radiators. This gave about a 20mph speed advantage over the chin
installation with the same sabre engine.

By the way Germanic is usually defined in historical terms,
the confederation and empire and earlier.

It seems you need to provide some facts as opposed to simply
trying to state the preferred conclusions. So we go from the
fighters using the technique to some experiments were run,
can we note the Fw190 used the "Mustang" radiator system
the C models? Perhaps the "Thunderbolt" supercharging
system as well? Or the "Hurricane" or "Fury" radiator system?

The Bf109 used the "Spitfire" radiator system, given the E
model prototype flew after the Spitfire? And so on.

Napiers investigated annular cooling systems during the war, which
in effect meant bolting the radiator onto the front of the engine. This
caused centre of gravity problems. You would hope the reduction
in frontal area would improve top speed.

For example Tempest EJ518 from May 1944 for a few months, it
ended up in 3 squadron in late 1944, apparently back to standard
configuration.

Typhoon R8694 was another modification, main testing was
apparently done with Tempest NV768.

So this all started well before the Fw190D appeared. The British
had been exposed to the Jumo's idea of radiators from the JU88A
in 1940. The Tempest I had the "Britannic", radiators in the
wing, arrangement shown so well to advantage by the Mosquito, it
was around 30 mph faster than the Tempest V.

Oh yes, the Germans were using "Americanic" systems, given the
credit for the first powered flight. Oh yes, the "Italianic" system
also contributed given Da Vinci's glider design appears to have
been airworthy when a modern team built a replica.

Personally I blame it all on the insects and then things like the
Pterosaurs, like Pterodactylus, which brings the "Antarticans"
into the picture.

Geoffrey Sinclair
Remove the nb for email.