Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.

Subject: Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.
From: (buf3)
Date: 8/24/2004 4:46 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote in message
...
The tighter the formation you fly the tighter the bomb pattern on the
ground
and the more damage you do to the enemy.


http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer/stripes.htm





Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

When I arrived at Andersen AFB on Guam in the summer of 1969 with my
RTU (Replacement Training Unit) B-52D crew we got a personal briefing
by the Third Air Division Commander. He had a lot of slides on BDA
(bomb damage assessment). In the beginning the Buffs were dropping in
trail formation. BDA showed that the first one was digging a trench
with his 108 five hundred pounders, then the following drops were just
digging the trench deeper and deeper. The tactics had changed to a
system they called DASK (drift angle station keeping). This was an
echelon formation to the right, stacked up with 500 ft, and half mile
separation. Sometimes we dropped off the lead aircraft. Sometimes we
dropped individually using radar offset aiming points. At times we
dropped at the direction of ground based radar. This system was RBS
(radar bomb scoring) in reverse. The ground controller would give
heading changes and then initiate a count down to release. At that
time we usually flew in three ship formations.

Gene Myers



Thank you for that fact filled very interesting post,.which are all too few in
this NG. Of course as you found out the trail formation was idiotic. No
offense to the Brits who used it all the time. The mystery is that with all we
learned in WW II about formations and bomb patterns, as late as Nam the USAF
was still droping in trails. The mind boggles. In WW II we flew tight
formations. As tight as possible and we got dense football shaped patterns on
the ground. This was done with such precision that by examining the shape of
the bomb pattern we could spot planes out of formation at the drop, or planes
that triggered late. What interests me about your post would be the shape of
the bomb pattern that resulted from the DASK formations. Got any strike photos?
Any at all? Can you describe these patterns in detai?. I am very interested.
Thanks again for a good post.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

My mind boggles at the thought of a long string of B17s in single file
trail. Besides giving the flak a chance to shoot at each aircraft
individually, and the lack of mutual bomber gun support versus the
fighters, by the time the middle guys got there the target would be
obscured by smoke and dust from the bombs ahead. By late 44 most
B17/B24 bombing was executed by the lead bombardier, a man picked for
skill, and the rest of the planes in the formation dropped their bombs
when he dropped his. AMAF there was a radio system to trigger the rest
of the planes when he pressed the pickle button, but I don't know how
much it was used. FWIW I've seen bomb trails from Arc Light
(B52)strikes in the jungles of VN - three parallel lines of craters,
maybe half a mile to a mile long. The craters are not each a single
line but sort of staggered slightly from side to side as the MERs left
center and right stations kick the bombs left, down and right -
slightly. As I remember the spacing between strings is like a couple
hundred yards or so. Again, FWIW, a lot of those strings of craters
were left by F4 formations dropping off Loran birds or the RBS (MSQ)
station at NKP. That involved a lot of either close formation or night
work holding a precise heading altitude and airspeed for what seemed
like an hour meanwhile listening to the RHAW gear chirping (and now
and then rattling) away. Bombing like that was like kissing an
elderly aunt when I was a little kid.
Walt BJ

When was the concept of fratricide among bombs first clearly articulated?

ArtKramr wrote:

The mystery is that with all we
learned in WW II about formations and bomb patterns, as late as Nam the USAF
was still droping in trails.

sigh We bomb in trail (for the most part) today and do a great job. Trail
formation has many benifits, not the least of which, it provides much needed
flexability when engaged by SAMs.

Your broad generalizations continue....


BUFDRVR

"Stay on the bomb run boys, I'm gonna get those bomb doors open if it harelips
everyone on Bear Creek"

(ArtKramr) wrote in message ...
Subject: Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.
From: (buf3)
Date: 8/24/2004 4:46 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote in message
...
The tighter the formation you fly the tighter the bomb pattern on the
ground
and the more damage you do to the enemy.


http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer/stripes.htm





Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

When I arrived at Andersen AFB on Guam in the summer of 1969 with my
RTU (Replacement Training Unit) B-52D crew we got a personal briefing
by the Third Air Division Commander. He had a lot of slides on BDA
(bomb damage assessment). In the beginning the Buffs were dropping in
trail formation. BDA showed that the first one was digging a trench
with his 108 five hundred pounders, then the following drops were just
digging the trench deeper and deeper. The tactics had changed to a
system they called DASK (drift angle station keeping). This was an
echelon formation to the right, stacked up with 500 ft, and half mile
separation. Sometimes we dropped off the lead aircraft. Sometimes we
dropped individually using radar offset aiming points. At times we
dropped at the direction of ground based radar. This system was RBS
(radar bomb scoring) in reverse. The ground controller would give
heading changes and then initiate a count down to release. At that
time we usually flew in three ship formations.

Gene Myers



Thank you for that fact filled very interesting post,.which are all too few in
this NG. Of course as you found out the trail formation was idiotic. No
offense to the Brits who used it all the time. The mystery is that with all we
learned in WW II about formations and bomb patterns, as late as Nam the USAF
was still droping in trails. The mind boggles. In WW II we flew tight
formations. As tight as possible and we got dense football shaped patterns on
the ground. This was done with such precision that by examining the shape of
the bomb pattern we could spot planes out of formation at the drop, or planes
that triggered late. What interests me about your post would be the shape of
the bomb pattern that resulted from the DASK formations. Got any strike photos?
Any at all? Can you describe these patterns in detai?. I am very interested.
Thanks again for a good post.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

I emailed you three alleged BDA pictures of Viet Nam drops by B-52s. I
can not vouch that they are authentic, but look about right to me.

Gene Myers

Subject: Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.
From: (buf3)
Date: 8/25/2004 3:36 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote in message
...
Subject: Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.
From: (buf3)
Date: 8/24/2004 4:46 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote in message
...
The tighter the formation you fly the tighter the bomb pattern on the
ground
and the more damage you do to the enemy.


http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer/stripes.htm





Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

When I arrived at Andersen AFB on Guam in the summer of 1969 with my
RTU (Replacement Training Unit) B-52D crew we got a personal briefing
by the Third Air Division Commander. He had a lot of slides on BDA
(bomb damage assessment). In the beginning the Buffs were dropping in
trail formation. BDA showed that the first one was digging a trench
with his 108 five hundred pounders, then the following drops were just
digging the trench deeper and deeper. The tactics had changed to a
system they called DASK (drift angle station keeping). This was an
echelon formation to the right, stacked up with 500 ft, and half mile
separation. Sometimes we dropped off the lead aircraft. Sometimes we
dropped individually using radar offset aiming points. At times we
dropped at the direction of ground based radar. This system was RBS
(radar bomb scoring) in reverse. The ground controller would give
heading changes and then initiate a count down to release. At that
time we usually flew in three ship formations.

Gene Myers



Thank you for that fact filled very interesting post,.which are all too few
in
this NG. Of course as you found out the trail formation was idiotic. No
offense to the Brits who used it all the time. The mystery is that with all
we
learned in WW II about formations and bomb patterns, as late as Nam the
USAF
was still droping in trails. The mind boggles. In WW II we flew tight
formations. As tight as possible and we got dense football shaped patterns
on
the ground. This was done with such precision that by examining the shape
of
the bomb pattern we could spot planes out of formation at the drop, or
planes
that triggered late. What interests me about your post would be the shape
of
the bomb pattern that resulted from the DASK formations. Got any strike
photos?
Any at all? Can you describe these patterns in detai?. I am very
interested.
Thanks again for a good post.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

I emailed you three alleged BDA pictures of Viet Nam drops by B-52s. I
can not vouch that they are authentic, but look about right to me.

Gene Myers



Thank you Gene. I'll view them wiith interest.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

Subject: Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.
From: (ArtKramr)
Date: 8/25/2004 3:40 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

Subject: Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.
From: (buf3)
Date: 8/25/2004 3:36 PM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote in message
...
Subject: Fly tight for tight bomb patterns on the ground.
From: (buf3)
Date: 8/24/2004 4:46 AM Pacific Standard Time
Message-id:

(ArtKramr) wrote in message
...
The tighter the formation you fly the tighter the bomb pattern on the
ground
and the more damage you do to the enemy.


http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer/stripes.htm





Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

When I arrived at Andersen AFB on Guam in the summer of 1969 with my
RTU (Replacement Training Unit) B-52D crew we got a personal briefing
by the Third Air Division Commander. He had a lot of slides on BDA
(bomb damage assessment). In the beginning the Buffs were dropping in
trail formation. BDA showed that the first one was digging a trench
with his 108 five hundred pounders, then the following drops were just
digging the trench deeper and deeper. The tactics had changed to a
system they called DASK (drift angle station keeping). This was an
echelon formation to the right, stacked up with 500 ft, and half mile
separation. Sometimes we dropped off the lead aircraft. Sometimes we
dropped individually using radar offset aiming points. At times we
dropped at the direction of ground based radar. This system was RBS
(radar bomb scoring) in reverse. The ground controller would give
heading changes and then initiate a count down to release. At that
time we usually flew in three ship formations.

Gene Myers



Thank you for that fact filled very interesting post,.which are all too
few
in
this NG. Of course as you found out the trail formation was idiotic. No
offense to the Brits who used it all the time. The mystery is that with
all
we
learned in WW II about formations and bomb patterns, as late as Nam the
USAF
was still droping in trails. The mind boggles. In WW II we flew tight
formations. As tight as possible and we got dense football shaped patterns
on
the ground. This was done with such precision that by examining the shape
of
the bomb pattern we could spot planes out of formation at the drop, or
planes
that triggered late. What interests me about your post would be the shape
of
the bomb pattern that resulted from the DASK formations. Got any strike
photos?
Any at all? Can you describe these patterns in detai?. I am very
interested.
Thanks again for a good post.


Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer

I emailed you three alleged BDA pictures of Viet Nam drops by B-52s. I
can not vouch that they are authentic, but look about right to me.

Gene Myers



Thank you Gene. I'll view them wiith interest.




Got 'em !

These are not very good, but all I could find after a short look.

Gene Myers

Thanks Gene. They are every interesting but not too clear. What I found
especially interesting are the huge gaps in the patterns. These look like bomb
patterns that surround the target more than clobber it. I would guess that it
is the result on an intermittant intervelometer.But it is hard to see very
clearly so I could be missing something. We need 10x10's and a stero glass.
(grin) Thanks again for letting me see them. You might want to look at the bomb
patterns on my website to see my frame of reference. Especially Wurzburg,
Verberie and Brest.




Arthur Kramer
344th BG 494th BS
England, France, Belgium, Holland, Germany
Visit my WW II B-26 website at:
http://www.coastcomp.com/artkramer