interesting moment yesterday on final

It's helpful to be reliably effective.

Effectively, "Rikki inbound" is reliable to a typical VFR pilot. He
will always not know where you are.

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...

I was taught to make calls based on distance rather than approach fix when
practicing approaches in VMC at an uncontrolled airport for just this
reason.


Advisory Circular 90-42F "Traffic Advisory Practices at Airports Without
Operating Control Towers" provides examples of self-announce phraseologies
for various situations. It provides the following for practice instrument
approaches:

"STRAWN TRAFFIC, CESSNA TWO ONE FOUR THREE QUEBEC (NAME-FINAL APPROACH FIX)
INBOUND DESCENDING THROUGH (ALTITUDE) PRACTICE (TYPE) APPROACH RUNWAY THREE
FIVE STRAWN"

Advisory Circular 90-42F "Traffic Advisory Practices at Airports Without
Operating Control Towers" provides examples of self-announce phraseologies
for various situations. It provides the following for practice instrument
approaches:

"STRAWN TRAFFIC, CESSNA TWO ONE FOUR THREE QUEBEC (NAME-FINAL APPROACH FIX)
INBOUND DESCENDING THROUGH (ALTITUDE) PRACTICE (TYPE) APPROACH RUNWAY THREE
FIVE STRAWN"

Well, that says more than "IBBIE inbound". The phrase "ILS approach
runway 35" gives a hint where to look.

OTOH, "IBBIE inbound, VOR Alpha approach" gives no hint to the VFR guy.
So, I guess I disagree with AC 90-42F.

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote in message
. ..

Well, that says more than "IBBIE inbound". The phrase "ILS approach
runway 35" gives a hint where to look.

OTOH, "IBBIE inbound, VOR Alpha approach" gives no hint to the VFR guy.
So, I guess I disagree with AC 90-42F.


Is that because the VFR guy cannot know where IBBIE is?

Where is IBBIE?

Is that because the VFR guy cannot know where IBBIE is?

It's because the VFR guy probably does not know where IBBIE is. It's
probably not on the VFR charts. It's probably not on many IFR charts.

Where is IBBIE?

Beats the hell out of me. But somebody just called in from there,
inbound. Better watch out for him.

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
"Matt Whiting" wrote in message
...
I was taught to make calls based on distance rather than approach fix when
practicing approaches in VMC at an uncontrolled airport for just this
reason.


Advisory Circular 90-42F "Traffic Advisory Practices at Airports Without
Operating Control Towers" provides examples of self-announce phraseologies
for various situations. It provides the following for practice instrument
approaches:

"STRAWN TRAFFIC, CESSNA TWO ONE FOUR THREE QUEBEC (NAME-FINAL APPROACH FIX)
INBOUND DESCENDING THROUGH (ALTITUDE) PRACTICE (TYPE) APPROACH RUNWAY THREE
FIVE STRAWN"

Yes, just confirms that the FAA is as dumb in this case as they are in
defining the meaning of being "on final." This announcement has
absolutely no utility at all for a VFR pilot who has had no instrument
approach training. Heck, even an instrument at a strange field would be
clueless unless he had an approach plate handy to pull out and check.

Matt

"Mike 'Flyin'8'" wrote in message
...

I do not think ANYONE is saying that aircraft flying the proper full
pattern have right of way.


No one in this thread is saying it explicitly, but they're certainly
implying it.



Rather, they are saying it is more
appropriate is most circumstances, and in almost all cases, safer for
everyone involved.


I've heard many say that, I've yet to hear anyone make a supporting case.



Excellent timing from AOPA on this subject...
In my email within the past couple days I received this from AOPA:

"In his May 2003 AOPA Pilot feature, "Pattern Perfection," Thomas A.
Horne reviews preferred entries. "It's best to enter the downwind leg
of a nontowered airport's traffic pattern at midfield, on a 45-degree
interception angle. This gives you a good viewing perspective of all
legs of the pattern. You should be at pattern altitude (anywhere from
600 feet agl to 1,500 feet agl-check your airport reference for the
recommended altitude), and your downwind leg should be flown as close
as is comfortable for the airplane you're flying."

Here is a link to the full article:
http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pi...ttern0305.html



Thomas A. Horne:

"Avoid straight-in finals. Yes, you can make any kind of pattern you want at
nontowered fields. But of all the transgressions against standard procedure,
the straight-in final may be the worst. Here you risk T-boning those who fly
standard patterns as they fly from base to final. This is why looking up and
down final is so important when navigating the base leg."

If T-boning occurs does it not mean the traffic flying from base to final
failed to yield the right-of-way to the traffic on final?

"JGalban via AviationKB.com" u32749@uwe wrote in message
news:72544a98bca67@uwe...

I'm not sure what you're getting at. "Five miles out on a straight-in"
would seem to be understandable to any VFR or IFR traffic in the pattern.
"RIKKI inbound" is not going to mean anything to the VFR guys.


"Five miles out on a straight-in" should be understandable to everyone, but
it's not very reliable. "RIKKI inbound" may not be understandable to
everyone, but it is reliable.


Many pilots are very poor at estimating distance, that's what I'm getting
at. I'm an air traffic controller. Just yesterday I was observing a 1200
code approach the Class C boundary as I was vectoring a Skyhawk for a
practice ILS. Right after I called that traffic to the Skyhawk I get a call
from an inbound VFR aircraft stating he's nineteen miles southwest of the
field. I issue a beacon code and watch as the unknown VFR changes to that
code, he's now a mile inside the Class C boundary, nine miles from the
field. This is not an unusual occurrence, happens with all types of
operators, this guy was even a local.

"RIKKI inbound" tells me there's inbound traffic over RIKKI. Since I know
where RIKKI is I know where the traffic is. "Five miles out on a
straight-in" tells me there's a guy on final that believes he's five miles
out. He might be five miles out, he might be fifteen miles out, he might be
two miles out.

I prefer reports I can rely on.

"Five miles out on a straight-in" should be understandable to everyone, but
it's not very reliable. "RIKKI inbound" may not be understandable to
everyone, but it is reliable.

Since the object is to assist in being acquired visually (aka "help
people find you in the air"), understandable but not reliable trumps
reliable but not understandable. If they can get eyeballs looking in
roughly the right direction, there's a good chance of being picked up.
But if all they know is there's "somebody" out there "somewhere", that
does not help.

...inbound VFR aircraft stating he's nineteen miles southwest...

At nineteen miles, "Southwest" is a big swath anyway.

"RIKKI inbound" tells me there's inbound traffic over RIKKI. Since I know
where RIKKI is I know where the traffic is.

And that's the difference. Controllers are looking at him on a scope,
probably with markings on it, and pilots are looking for him on the High
Resolution Plexiglass Display, and mine doesn't have RIKKI marked on it.

Talking to a controller, RIKKI inbound makes more sense. But as a
general call to pilots in the area, it does not.

Jose
--
There are two kinds of people in the world. Those that just want to
know what button to push, and those that want to know what happens when
they push the button.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jose" wrote in message
...

Effectively, "Rikki inbound" is reliable to a typical VFR pilot. He will
always not know where you are.


Ya think? ALWAYS not know? RIKKI does not exist in the real world. Let's
look at a real-world example, the ILS runway 31 at Houghton County Memorial
Airport in Hancock Michigan:

http://map.aeroplanner.com/mapping/c...yp=APT&txt=cmx


Here's the call in the format specified in AC 90-42F:

"Houghton County traffic, Gulfstream one two three four alpha GALEY inbound
descending through two thousand five hundred ILS approach runway three one
Houghton County."

Should a typical VFR pilot know where the Gulfstream is?