Stalls and Thoughts

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Blueskies" wrote in
. net:

LeVier did a lot of the high mach number dive tests in the 38,
and there definitely was a compressibility problem, mach tuck;
the
whole
works. I know they added speed brakes but not sure at exactly
what stage. The engine rotation switch was early on in the
program according to Ethell; I believe in the YP38 stage before
the first production run. If I'm not mistaken, the high mach
dives came after the switch but I'm not at all certain of that.

--
Dudley Henriques
All the -38s sold to England had same rotation direction engines
on both sides all the way through. Just another odd thing...


Are you sure about that?


Bertie
I heard the same thing. The Brits raised hell about what they
considered
a high degree of possibility for unnecessary maintainence due to the
handed engines. On the practical side, the Brits had ordered a ton
of P40's which used the V1710 Allison with a right handed prop. The
word
we
got was that the brits wanted the Allison's on the 38's to be
interchangeable with the P40 to cut down on cost.



Well, that's reasonable. Never heard that before. Could be an urban
legend based on one photo of an airplane field kitted with two RH
engines. A bit like the Fokker DR1 that got an odd aileron and
started a legend that they all had one smaller than the other to
compensate for torque.


Bertie
Possible?? Torque correction IS in roll and not yaw as is the common
belief :-)


Oh the things had torque issues alright, but some nerd of an historian
has proven that there was only one DR1 with mismatched ailerons. The
eraly ones had one size and the later ones had another and a field
repair resulted in the one with two odd ailerons. Since it was a good
pictiure showing them clearly and someone did a detailed drawing basd on
it, it got lodged in folklore. There were airplanes that had larger
wings n the left for this purpose however. Ansaldo, for one.


Bertie

Dudley Henriques wrote in news:vb-
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Blueskies" wrote in
. net:

LeVier did a lot of the high mach number dive tests in the 38,
and
there definitely was a compressibility problem, mach tuck; the
whole
works. I know they added speed brakes but not sure at exactly
what
stage. The engine rotation switch was early on in the program
according to Ethell; I believe in the YP38 stage before the first
production run. If I'm not mistaken, the high mach dives came
after
the switch but I'm not at all certain of that.

--
Dudley Henriques
All the -38s sold to England had same rotation direction engines
on
both sides all the way through. Just another odd thing...


Are you sure about that?


Bertie
I heard the same thing. The Brits raised hell about what they
considered
a high degree of possibility for unnecessary maintainence due to the
handed engines. On the practical side, the Brits had ordered a ton
of
P40's which used the V1710 Allison with a right handed prop. The
word
we
got was that the brits wanted the Allison's on the 38's to be
interchangeable with the P40 to cut down on cost.


Found some info on that in an old book I have. Apparently there were
a
handful of unblown 38s delivered to the RAF with both engines RH but
they had a lot of problems and the remainder all had contra rotating
engines.


Bertie

That's right on the Turbo Chargers. The Brits believed they wouldn't
be
fighting at the altitudes where the Turbos were an advantage.



According to the ariticle on the website they were inherited from a
French order and the French wanted them without to avoid delays in
deliveries.

Bertie

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Blueskies" wrote in
. net:

LeVier did a lot of the high mach number dive tests in the 38, and
there definitely was a compressibility problem, mach tuck; the
whole
works. I know they added speed brakes but not sure at exactly what
stage. The engine rotation switch was early on in the program
according to Ethell; I believe in the YP38 stage before the first
production run. If I'm not mistaken, the high mach dives came after
the switch but I'm not at all certain of that.

--
Dudley Henriques
All the -38s sold to England had same rotation direction engines on
both sides all the way through. Just another odd thing...


Are you sure about that?


Bertie
I heard the same thing. The Brits raised hell about what they
considered
a high degree of possibility for unnecessary maintainence due to the
handed engines. On the practical side, the Brits had ordered a ton of
P40's which used the V1710 Allison with a right handed prop. The word
we
got was that the brits wanted the Allison's on the 38's to be
interchangeable with the P40 to cut down on cost.



http://www.vectorsite.net/avp38.html

And here'some more stuff saying more or less the same thing.

BTW, do you remember the guy with the yellow 38 who used to do a low
level deadstick aerobatic routine? Saw him at Rockford once but can't
remember his name.


Bertie

The only P38 guys I knew who did the show circuit during the time I was
in it were Lefty Gardner, Chuck Lyford, Jeff Ethell, Bill Ross, and Hoof
Proudfoot. Can't recall anyone flying a yellow bird.

--
Dudley Henriques

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Blueskies" wrote in
. net:

LeVier did a lot of the high mach number dive tests in the 38,
and there definitely was a compressibility problem, mach tuck;
the
whole
works. I know they added speed brakes but not sure at exactly
what stage. The engine rotation switch was early on in the
program according to Ethell; I believe in the YP38 stage before
the first production run. If I'm not mistaken, the high mach
dives came after the switch but I'm not at all certain of that.

--
Dudley Henriques
All the -38s sold to England had same rotation direction engines
on both sides all the way through. Just another odd thing...


Are you sure about that?


Bertie
I heard the same thing. The Brits raised hell about what they
considered
a high degree of possibility for unnecessary maintainence due to the
handed engines. On the practical side, the Brits had ordered a ton
of P40's which used the V1710 Allison with a right handed prop. The
word
we
got was that the brits wanted the Allison's on the 38's to be
interchangeable with the P40 to cut down on cost.


Well, that's reasonable. Never heard that before. Could be an urban
legend based on one photo of an airplane field kitted with two RH
engines. A bit like the Fokker DR1 that got an odd aileron and
started a legend that they all had one smaller than the other to
compensate for torque.


Bertie
Possible?? Torque correction IS in roll and not yaw as is the common
belief :-)


Oh the things had torque issues alright, but some nerd of an historian
has proven that there was only one DR1 with mismatched ailerons. The
eraly ones had one size and the later ones had another and a field
repair resulted in the one with two odd ailerons. Since it was a good
pictiure showing them clearly and someone did a detailed drawing basd on
it, it got lodged in folklore. There were airplanes that had larger
wings n the left for this purpose however. Ansaldo, for one.


Bertie

I guess the WW1 practical test for German AI's missed "aileron mismatch"
:-))

--
Dudley Henriques

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in news:vb-
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Blueskies" wrote in
. net:

LeVier did a lot of the high mach number dive tests in the 38,
and
there definitely was a compressibility problem, mach tuck; the
whole
works. I know they added speed brakes but not sure at exactly
what
stage. The engine rotation switch was early on in the program
according to Ethell; I believe in the YP38 stage before the first
production run. If I'm not mistaken, the high mach dives came
after
the switch but I'm not at all certain of that.

--
Dudley Henriques
All the -38s sold to England had same rotation direction engines
on
both sides all the way through. Just another odd thing...


Are you sure about that?


Bertie
I heard the same thing. The Brits raised hell about what they
considered
a high degree of possibility for unnecessary maintainence due to the
handed engines. On the practical side, the Brits had ordered a ton
of
P40's which used the V1710 Allison with a right handed prop. The
word
we
got was that the brits wanted the Allison's on the 38's to be
interchangeable with the P40 to cut down on cost.

Found some info on that in an old book I have. Apparently there were
a
handful of unblown 38s delivered to the RAF with both engines RH but
they had a lot of problems and the remainder all had contra rotating
engines.


Bertie
That's right on the Turbo Chargers. The Brits believed they wouldn't
be
fighting at the altitudes where the Turbos were an advantage.



According to the ariticle on the website they were inherited from a
French order and the French wanted them without to avoid delays in
deliveries.

Bertie
That one's new to me, but highly likely :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

--
Regards, BobF.
"Dudley Henriques" wrote in message
...
Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in news:vb-
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Blueskies" wrote in
. net:
LeVier did a lot of the high mach number dive tests in the 38,
and
there definitely was a compressibility problem, mach tuck; the
whole
works. I know they added speed brakes but not sure at exactly
what
stage. The engine rotation switch was early on in the program
according to Ethell; I believe in the YP38 stage before the first
production run. If I'm not mistaken, the high mach dives came
after
the switch but I'm not at all certain of that.
--
Dudley Henriques
All the -38s sold to England had same rotation direction engines
on
both sides all the way through. Just another odd thing...

Are you sure about that?

Bertie
I heard the same thing. The Brits raised hell about what they
considered
a high degree of possibility for unnecessary maintainence due to the
handed engines. On the practical side, the Brits had ordered a ton
of
P40's which used the V1710 Allison with a right handed prop. The
word
we
got was that the brits wanted the Allison's on the 38's to be
interchangeable with the P40 to cut down on cost.

Found some info on that in an old book I have. Apparently there were
a
handful of unblown 38s delivered to the RAF with both engines RH but
they had a lot of problems and the remainder all had contra rotating
engines.


Bertie
That's right on the Turbo Chargers. The Brits believed they wouldn't
be
fighting at the altitudes where the Turbos were an advantage.



According to the ariticle on the website they were inherited from a
French order and the French wanted them without to avoid delays in
deliveries. Bertie
That one's new to me, but highly likely :-))

--
Dudley Henriques

There's a lot of strange airplanes out there. We once had a vendor come in
and try to sell us an aluminum thickness test tool. We went out on the
finished line at Renton and randomly went up to one 737 and did a quick
check of the right and left wings. His tool showed the sheet metal was a
few mills thicker on one side. We challenged it and sure enough he was
right. During final flight checks the plane had to be rigged uniquely and
cost a seat or two. Every airplane has a set of manuals assigned to it and
they had to updated too. The airplane sale went through at a discount to
the carrier. So look for a lopsided 737 out there. Now you know the rest
of the story.

On Sun, 16 Mar 2008 09:25:24 -0400, Peter Clark
wrote:

On Sat, 15 Mar 2008 19:39:13 -0400, Dudley Henriques
wrote:


I believe you are repeating wht I have said. I said that "dragging it
in" generally refers to flying the approach in the area of reverse

However: ormal and short field landin gin the Bo...F33, Deb, and A36
(IF flown according to the POH) are all at well less than maximum
endurance. This is far from dragging it in which was giving the ASF
fits about "dragging it in for short field landings" which are flown
well under max endurance speed, but are "steep". The short field is
just steeper with more power. However in neither case should the
plane be in the so called coffin corner as there is enough reserve
power to stop the descent without lowering the nose. That is even
flying a very steep short field approach.
command or if you will behind the power curve. This is absolutely
correct. Coffin corner is the area behind the curve where sink rate
can't be stopped with power but requires reduction in angle of attack.

Any of the Bo's get really squirley when flown this way and for a
competent pilot will provide suficient warning, but I'd sure not want
to get one that slow any where on final as that sucker is so close
to stalling the unwary could quickly ruin their insurance companie's
day.

For a perfect example of an aircraft in coffin corner, see the Edwards
AFB accident involving a young AF pilot who got his F100 so deep into
coffin corner behind the curve he couldn't recover the airplane; not

That was one impressive film strip. Although it w asn't long it sure
seemed that way. He did one whale of a job balancing on the tail until
she finally fell over to the left as I recall. When I say balancing
on the tail, for those who haven't seen the video/film clip he wasn't
just nose high.

enough air under him to reduce the angle of attack. He applied full
burner but couldn't fly it out on power alone. Reduction of angle of
attack was what he needed and he didn't have the room. THIS is the
definition of coffin corner and it most certainly IS in the area of
reverse command.

Which reminds me, I saw a clip of a 104 where I believe the engine
seized. It started to skid sideways and then *flipped" over onto its
top. Do you know the story behind that?

I thought coffin corner was the point where if you go slower you stall
and if you go faster you hit critical mach number?
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in news:vb-
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Blueskies" wrote in
. net:

LeVier did a lot of the high mach number dive tests in the 38,
and
there definitely was a compressibility problem, mach tuck; the
whole
works. I know they added speed brakes but not sure at exactly
what
stage. The engine rotation switch was early on in the program
according to Ethell; I believe in the YP38 stage before the
first
production run. If I'm not mistaken, the high mach dives came
after
the switch but I'm not at all certain of that.

--
Dudley Henriques
All the -38s sold to England had same rotation direction engines
on
both sides all the way through. Just another odd thing...


Are you sure about that?


Bertie
I heard the same thing. The Brits raised hell about what they
considered
a high degree of possibility for unnecessary maintainence due to
the
handed engines. On the practical side, the Brits had ordered a ton
of
P40's which used the V1710 Allison with a right handed prop. The
word
we
got was that the brits wanted the Allison's on the 38's to be
interchangeable with the P40 to cut down on cost.

Found some info on that in an old book I have. Apparently there
were
a
handful of unblown 38s delivered to the RAF with both engines RH
but
they had a lot of problems and the remainder all had contra
rotating
engines.


Bertie
That's right on the Turbo Chargers. The Brits believed they wouldn't
be
fighting at the altitudes where the Turbos were an advantage.



According to the ariticle on the website they were inherited from a
French order and the French wanted them without to avoid delays in
deliveries.

Bertie
That one's new to me, but highly likely :-))


Don't know a whole lot about WW2 aviation. just peripheral stuff,
really. You'd be a lifetime at figuring out the whole mess.

Bertie

Dudley Henriques wrote in news:Xv6dnflw9_
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Blueskies" wrote in
. net:

LeVier did a lot of the high mach number dive tests in the 38,
and
there definitely was a compressibility problem, mach tuck; the
whole
works. I know they added speed brakes but not sure at exactly
what
stage. The engine rotation switch was early on in the program
according to Ethell; I believe in the YP38 stage before the first
production run. If I'm not mistaken, the high mach dives came
after
the switch but I'm not at all certain of that.

--
Dudley Henriques
All the -38s sold to England had same rotation direction engines
on
both sides all the way through. Just another odd thing...


Are you sure about that?


Bertie
I heard the same thing. The Brits raised hell about what they
considered
a high degree of possibility for unnecessary maintainence due to the
handed engines. On the practical side, the Brits had ordered a ton
of
P40's which used the V1710 Allison with a right handed prop. The
word
we
got was that the brits wanted the Allison's on the 38's to be
interchangeable with the P40 to cut down on cost.



http://www.vectorsite.net/avp38.html

And here'some more stuff saying more or less the same thing.

BTW, do you remember the guy with the yellow 38 who used to do a low
level deadstick aerobatic routine? Saw him at Rockford once but can't
remember his name.


Bertie

The only P38 guys I knew who did the show circuit during the time I
was
in it were Lefty Gardner, Chuck Lyford, Jeff Ethell, Bill Ross, and
Hoof
Proudfoot. Can't recall anyone flying a yellow bird.


Chuck Lyford. That was him. I remember now. I think it might have been
Lockheed's own airplane he was flying . He did some of the routine
deadstick. I think I saw him at Reading once too.


Bertie

Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
Dudley Henriques wrote in
:

Bertie the Bunyip wrote:
"Blueskies" wrote in
. net:

LeVier did a lot of the high mach number dive tests in the 38,
and there definitely was a compressibility problem, mach tuck;
the
whole
works. I know they added speed brakes but not sure at exactly
what stage. The engine rotation switch was early on in the
program according to Ethell; I believe in the YP38 stage before
the first production run. If I'm not mistaken, the high mach
dives came after the switch but I'm not at all certain of that.

--
Dudley Henriques
All the -38s sold to England had same rotation direction engines
on both sides all the way through. Just another odd thing...


Are you sure about that?


Bertie
I heard the same thing. The Brits raised hell about what they
considered
a high degree of possibility for unnecessary maintainence due to
the handed engines. On the practical side, the Brits had ordered a
ton of P40's which used the V1710 Allison with a right handed
prop. The word
we
got was that the brits wanted the Allison's on the 38's to be
interchangeable with the P40 to cut down on cost.


Well, that's reasonable. Never heard that before. Could be an urban
legend based on one photo of an airplane field kitted with two RH
engines. A bit like the Fokker DR1 that got an odd aileron and
started a legend that they all had one smaller than the other to
compensate for torque.


Bertie
Possible?? Torque correction IS in roll and not yaw as is the common
belief :-)


Oh the things had torque issues alright, but some nerd of an
historian has proven that there was only one DR1 with mismatched
ailerons. The eraly ones had one size and the later ones had another
and a field repair resulted in the one with two odd ailerons. Since
it was a good pictiure showing them clearly and someone did a
detailed drawing basd on it, it got lodged in folklore. There were
airplanes that had larger wings n the left for this purpose however.
Ansaldo, for one.


Bertie

I guess the WW1 practical test for German AI's missed "aileron
mismatch"
:-))


Wouldn't be the first or last time! I had two very different wings on a
Luscombe with two completely different aileron hinge arrangements. It
was a very early 1939 airplane and it must have damaged a wing and one
was put on from a later machine.
There's a famous pic of a DC-3 that was dmamged and flown for a time
with a DC 2 wing, which was considerably smaller.. Early days of WW2 in
China, I beleive.

Bertie