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#171
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"Jose" wrote in message m... Good enough. But suppose your radios are all working fine, but you just can't get a word in edgewise. I won't speculate as to how that might be possible at this particular (middle of nowhere) facility, I'll just note that it happens where I fly. You go straight in, as you said you would. Would =that= be a technical violation of the FARs, since you don't have 91.3 to rely upon? In that case I don't make a straight-in approach, I don't make an approach at all. I continue to my clearance limit and enter a standard hold at whatever altitude I was last cleared to maintain. |
#172
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"Jose" wrote in message news That EGF456 was following you since the beginning of your flight was not part of the scenario, at least not as presented. I took it as another aircraft that could be coming from anywhere, which is now also cleared for the same approach you are on and presumably will be following you. Even if I hadn't heard any of the previous exchanges between EGF456 and ATC, the exchange on initial contact with GRB approach was enough to tell me he's three minutes behind me. He's my direct competition, we fly the same route just a few minutes apart every day. The fact that he contacted GRB three minutes after I did and reported out of an altitude above mine tells me he's behind me. |
#173
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"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote in message link.net... "Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message ... I've already made my case. You may reread it and the references until you understand it, or choose to disagree. I missed the message in which you did that, didn't make it through my provider. Could you copy and paste it in reply to this message? Your case didn't show up on Google Groups either. Could you repost it? I'd really like to read it. |
#174
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On Sun, 09 Oct 2005 00:00:02 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
wrote: So you've effectively ignored the ATC requirement to start an approach at an IAF. That is a requirement for ATC unless giving radar vectors IAW 7110.65 5-9-1. You may say that DEPRE is an IAF (which it is) but it is not being used as one in this scenario. Cite that requirement. 7110.65 4-8-1. APPROACH CLEARANCE a. ... Standard Instrument Approach Procedures shall commence at an Initial Approach Fix or an Intermediate Approach Fix if there is not an Initial Approach Fix. Why doesn't DEPRE count as an IAF in this scenario? What is the minimum altitude at DEPRE when it is being used as an IAF? How is the initial segment defined? How will you navigate from DEPRE to the FAF for the ILS approach? --------------------------------------- Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA) |
#175
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"Ron Rosenfeld" wrote in message ... 7110.65 4-8-1. APPROACH CLEARANCE a. ... Standard Instrument Approach Procedures shall commence at an Initial Approach Fix or an Intermediate Approach Fix if there is not an Initial Approach Fix. That requirement is not violated. AWI123 intercepts the localizer fifteen miles south of DEPRE. DEPRE is an IAF. What is the minimum altitude at DEPRE when it is being used as an IAF? AWI123 is level at 3000 and five miles south of DEPRE when cleared for the approach. He follows the localizer down and crosses DEPRE at 2141 MSL. How is the initial segment defined? The segment between the intial approach fix and the intermediate fix or the point where the aircraft is established on the intermediate course or final approach course. How will you navigate from DEPRE to the FAF for the ILS approach? Lateral guidance is provided by the localizer, if I've passed DEPRE I've passed the FAF. |
#176
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AWI123 is level at 3000 and five miles south of DEPRE when cleared for the
approach. He follows the localizer down and crosses DEPRE at 2141 MSL. Wasn't there an accident recently caused by a misunderstanding like what is suggested here? If you are (umpty ump) miles south of the IAF, but above the initial approach altitude, and get cleared for the approach, when can you descend? I recall (perhaps imperfectly) that some airliner descended inappropriately and ran into terrain, while still above the altitude for the IAF. A clearance for the approach is not (AFAIK) a clearance to -descend- to the approach altitude from an otherwise assigned higher one. If I'm missing something here, what is it? Jose -- Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
#177
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"Jose" wrote in message t... AWI123 is level at 3000 and five miles south of DEPRE when cleared for the approach. He follows the localizer down and crosses DEPRE at 2141 MSL. Wasn't there an accident recently caused by a misunderstanding like what is suggested here? What misunderstanding do you believe is suggested here? If you are (umpty ump) miles south of the IAF, but above the initial approach altitude, and get cleared for the approach, when can you descend? Immediately. If the aircraft is not yet established on a segment of a published route or instrument approach procedure ATC must assign an altitude to maintain until it is. Sometimes in the situation I described here aircraft report on the localizer on initial contact with GRB approach, when they are 30 miles or so from the field. They can be cleared for the approach at that time, "cross SENNA at or above 3000, cleared ILS runway three six approach." I recall (perhaps imperfectly) that some airliner descended inappropriately and ran into terrain, while still above the altitude for the IAF. A clearance for the approach is not (AFAIK) a clearance to -descend- to the approach altitude from an otherwise assigned higher one. If I'm missing something here, what is it? Doesn't sound like a recent accident to me, sounds like TWA514, but that was over thirty years ago. |
#178
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Doesn't sound like a recent accident to me, sounds like TWA514, but that was
over thirty years ago. To some of us that's recent. If you are (umpty ump) miles south of the IAF, but above the initial approach altitude, and get cleared for the approach, when can you descend? Immediately. If the aircraft is not yet established on a segment of a published route or instrument approach procedure ATC must assign an altitude to maintain until it is. Sometimes in the situation I described here aircraft report on the localizer on initial contact with GRB approach, when they are 30 miles or so from the field. They can be cleared for the approach at that time, "cross SENNA at or above 3000, cleared ILS runway three six approach." IF the controller fails to assign an altitude to maintain when giving the approach clearance umpty ump miles out, I presume the existing altitude assignment remains valid until the aircraft is established, in this case until SENNA, the start of the heavy black line. Yes? Jose -- Get high on gasoline: fly an airplane. for Email, make the obvious change in the address. |
#179
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Jose wrote: IF the controller fails to assign an altitude to maintain when giving the approach clearance umpty ump miles out, I presume the existing altitude assignment remains valid until the aircraft is established, in this case until SENNA, the start of the heavy black line. Yes? No. That's why the controller is required to state the altitude. Once cleared for the approach the pilot may descend to the initial approach altitude. |
#180
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Newps wrote:
Jose wrote: IF the controller fails to assign an altitude to maintain when giving the approach clearance umpty ump miles out, I presume the existing altitude assignment remains valid until the aircraft is established, in this case until SENNA, the start of the heavy black line. Yes? No. That's why the controller is required to state the altitude. Once cleared for the approach the pilot may descend to the initial approach altitude. I didn't see the initial question here, but I think you are wrong. the controllers are required to say it because in may cases (as it appears here) pilots make mistakes and think they can descend when in fact they are not on any segment. You cannot descend until established on a segment. |
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