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#11
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Garmin 396 Weather avoidance..
"Doug Vetter" wrote: I always stay clear of red, since it's always convective. Not always, but it is probably safest to assume it is. -- Dan C172RG at BFM |
#12
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Garmin 396 Weather avoidance..
Third, you need to understand that delayed weather is not a tactical
weather avoidance device. Robert M. Gary wrote: I wish I had an easy answer for you. However, wx is a non-trivial subject. There are two ways you can make use of your 396 in wx. First, you can fly with a CFI who is experienced in flying cross country. Second you can start out very, very conservative and learn as you go how the wx on your 396 affects your flight. -Robert, CFI Dan wrote: For those of you with a Garmin 396, how do you avoid dangerous weather, avoid yellow and steer clear of the lightning strike indications? I am considering the purchase of one and am wondering how to use the info safely, but yet with the maximum utility. Dan |
#13
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Garmin 396 Weather avoidance..
Bob,
Was this a center or approach control facility and more specifically, was the weather info display primary or NEXRAD? If NEXRAD, did they discuss the amount of delay in the weather info on the controller's display? I'm wondering if it is significantly shorter? I know the satellite broadcast distribution adds some additional delay, but as I undersrand it, NEXRAD radar systems take a few minutes to build the composite view from several sweeps. Point is, the controller's display may be a few minutes old as well. Also, as you point out, the weather chances quickly and the radar is only showing precip. Thus, it is not showing the radid air currents of a developing storm. Until you have experienced being sucked up into a radily developing convective storm by flying through an area that your StrikeFinder and ATC agreed was the best path, you don't fully appreciate how danerous this type of weather can be. I second your recommendation to stay well clear of this type of weather. Ronnie "Bob Gardner" wrote in message . .. The first thing you need to understand is that the weather you see on the 396 is several minutes old...possibly as much as eleven minutes. So you need to watch the display and figure out which way the echoes are going, and plan on passing them on the upwind side. Then you need to realize that radar reflects only decent size rain droplets, not vertical currents, not the tops of clouds, not turbulence. Bottom line is: Stay well clear of anything green...yellow and red go without saying. If you have to get into the green, make the incursion as short as possible. Saw a revealing presentation at a NATCA controller's conference. They showed a slide with several large cells being displayed, and indicated the position of a 172 when the scenario began. The pilot told the controller that if he could have a certain heading, he would be clear of the cell he saw on his screen and could proceed to his destination. Unfortunately, by the time he got to the geographical area which was nice and clear on his cockpit display at the time he asked for the heading, the cell had moved directly into his path with predictable results. The message to the controllers in attendance was "What the pilot sees in the cockpit and real life are two different things." Bob Gardner "Dan" wrote in message oups.com... For those of you with a Garmin 396, how do you avoid dangerous weather, avoid yellow and steer clear of the lightning strike indications? I am considering the purchase of one and am wondering how to use the info safely, but yet with the maximum utility. Dan |
#14
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Garmin 396 Weather avoidance..
Honestly don't know whether it was Center or terminal, but I suspect that it
was Center. The whole discussion was about delays. In precipitation mode, the image is updated every 4 to 6 minutes. This link gives the NWS explanation of NEXRAD. http://weather.noaa.gov/radar/radinfo/radinfo.html. The WARP (Weather and Radar Processor) system, which is the weather display at Center consoles, suggests further delays as the radar information is processed (duh). I have been beating the drums, writing letters to the editor, etc, to try to eliminate the phrase "real-time weather" from articles and advertisements. NO ONE gets real-time weather, not even the folks at the NWS radar sites. Because the presentation was by the Air Safety Foundation, you might find more info on their web site. Bob "Ronnie" wrote in message . com... Bob, Was this a center or approach control facility and more specifically, was the weather info display primary or NEXRAD? If NEXRAD, did they discuss the amount of delay in the weather info on the controller's display? I'm wondering if it is significantly shorter? I know the satellite broadcast distribution adds some additional delay, but as I undersrand it, NEXRAD radar systems take a few minutes to build the composite view from several sweeps. Point is, the controller's display may be a few minutes old as well. Also, as you point out, the weather chances quickly and the radar is only showing precip. Thus, it is not showing the radid air currents of a developing storm. Until you have experienced being sucked up into a radily developing convective storm by flying through an area that your StrikeFinder and ATC agreed was the best path, you don't fully appreciate how danerous this type of weather can be. I second your recommendation to stay well clear of this type of weather. Ronnie "Bob Gardner" wrote in message . .. The first thing you need to understand is that the weather you see on the 396 is several minutes old...possibly as much as eleven minutes. So you need to watch the display and figure out which way the echoes are going, and plan on passing them on the upwind side. Then you need to realize that radar reflects only decent size rain droplets, not vertical currents, not the tops of clouds, not turbulence. Bottom line is: Stay well clear of anything green...yellow and red go without saying. If you have to get into the green, make the incursion as short as possible. Saw a revealing presentation at a NATCA controller's conference. They showed a slide with several large cells being displayed, and indicated the position of a 172 when the scenario began. The pilot told the controller that if he could have a certain heading, he would be clear of the cell he saw on his screen and could proceed to his destination. Unfortunately, by the time he got to the geographical area which was nice and clear on his cockpit display at the time he asked for the heading, the cell had moved directly into his path with predictable results. The message to the controllers in attendance was "What the pilot sees in the cockpit and real life are two different things." Bob Gardner "Dan" wrote in message oups.com... For those of you with a Garmin 396, how do you avoid dangerous weather, avoid yellow and steer clear of the lightning strike indications? I am considering the purchase of one and am wondering how to use the info safely, but yet with the maximum utility. Dan |
#15
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Garmin 396 Weather avoidance..
I'm not aware of ATC displaying NEXRAD although I suppose it's possible.
We display real time weather in the TRACON up to six seconds old. Ronnie wrote: Bob, Was this a center or approach control facility and more specifically, was the weather info display primary or NEXRAD? If NEXRAD, did they discuss the amount of delay in the weather info on the controller's display? I'm wondering if it is significantly shorter? I know the satellite broadcast distribution adds some additional delay, but as I undersrand it, NEXRAD radar systems take a few minutes to build the composite view from several sweeps. Point is, the controller's display may be a few minutes old as well. Also, as you point out, the weather chances quickly and the radar is only showing precip. Thus, it is not showing the radid air currents of a developing storm. Until you have experienced being sucked up into a radily developing convective storm by flying through an area that your StrikeFinder and ATC agreed was the best path, you don't fully appreciate how danerous this type of weather can be. I second your recommendation to stay well clear of this type of weather. Ronnie "Bob Gardner" wrote in message . .. The first thing you need to understand is that the weather you see on the 396 is several minutes old...possibly as much as eleven minutes. So you need to watch the display and figure out which way the echoes are going, and plan on passing them on the upwind side. Then you need to realize that radar reflects only decent size rain droplets, not vertical currents, not the tops of clouds, not turbulence. Bottom line is: Stay well clear of anything green...yellow and red go without saying. If you have to get into the green, make the incursion as short as possible. Saw a revealing presentation at a NATCA controller's conference. They showed a slide with several large cells being displayed, and indicated the position of a 172 when the scenario began. The pilot told the controller that if he could have a certain heading, he would be clear of the cell he saw on his screen and could proceed to his destination. Unfortunately, by the time he got to the geographical area which was nice and clear on his cockpit display at the time he asked for the heading, the cell had moved directly into his path with predictable results. The message to the controllers in attendance was "What the pilot sees in the cockpit and real life are two different things." Bob Gardner "Dan" wrote in message groups.com... For those of you with a Garmin 396, how do you avoid dangerous weather, avoid yellow and steer clear of the lightning strike indications? I am considering the purchase of one and am wondering how to use the info safely, but yet with the maximum utility. Dan |
#16
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Garmin 396 Weather avoidance..
Bob Gardner wrote:
Honestly don't know whether it was Center or terminal, but I suspect that it was Center. The whole discussion was about delays. In precipitation mode, the image is updated every 4 to 6 minutes. This link gives the NWS explanation of NEXRAD. http://weather.noaa.gov/radar/radinfo/radinfo.html. The WARP (Weather and Radar Processor) system, which is the weather display at Center consoles, suggests further delays as the radar information is processed (duh). I have been beating the drums, writing letters to the editor, etc, to try to eliminate the phrase "real-time weather" from articles and advertisements. NO ONE gets real-time weather, not even the folks at the NWS radar sites. Only airborne weather radar provides real-time echos. |
#17
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Garmin 396 Weather avoidance..
Bob Gardner wrote: NO ONE gets real-time weather, not even the folks at the NWS radar sites. ATC gets real time weather, updated every six seconds. |
#18
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Garmin 396 Weather avoidance..
Dan wrote:
For those of you with a Garmin 396, how do you avoid dangerous weather, avoid yellow and steer clear of the lightning strike indications? I am considering the purchase of one and am wondering how to use the info safely, but yet with the maximum utility. Dan I've had a 396 for a year, but not that much weather flying with it. I drive a lot and it's fun to analyze from the ground. I think one of the big dangers as mentioned here before it getting into a rapidly building tower cumulous which might not show up if you're in the soup with your 396. I remember in Robert Buck's book "Weather Flying" I think he said the worst turbulence he ever experienced was in a cloud that hadn't produced rain yet. My solution is to try to stay either above to see the buildups, or below and avoid the rain shafts. But the 396 can also be used to find areas of less cloud cover and lower tops. The echo tops have that feature where you can scroll through the altitudes and watch where cloud appears. Then you can just look for the holes in the regular satellite display. So to me the trick it so combine all these: The 396 weather features, what image ATC is painting, the overall weather picture to determine if the ingredients for convection are there, what you see out the window, PIREPS and ride reports, tactical weather flying to try to keep yourself visual as much as possible. Green or yellow may be fine on days when you know there is little chance of buildups. But if green is next to a steep gradient of yellow, into orange to red. Steer clear. I think the 396 is an amazing tool. You can sit on the ground in your airplane and it's almost like having the internet in your lap. I sat on the ramp at Midway a few weeks ago and waited for a hole in the weather using the 396. I practice with Elite simulator which will now drive your 396 plugged into a serial port. I can put the satellite antenna out the window to get real weather, download through Elite and the internet real weather, and I can do near real time weather practice sim flying. And you get a great automotive navigator for a few extra bucks. ... akiley |
#19
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Garmin 396 Weather avoidance..
That's not what the NWS web page says, and it's not what I was told by the
local NWS folks. The whole discussion at the NATCA "Communicating for Safety" conference had to do with the delays between real-time and WARP experienced by Center controllers. One point made was that Radar and Weather Processing involves (duh) processing, and six seconds was never mentioned. Something is missing here, and I'm not sure where to look. But I have a ZSE controller I can check with. Bob Gardner "Newps" wrote in message . .. I'm not aware of ATC displaying NEXRAD although I suppose it's possible. We display real time weather in the TRACON up to six seconds old. Ronnie wrote: Bob, Was this a center or approach control facility and more specifically, was the weather info display primary or NEXRAD? If NEXRAD, did they discuss the amount of delay in the weather info on the controller's display? I'm wondering if it is significantly shorter? I know the satellite broadcast distribution adds some additional delay, but as I undersrand it, NEXRAD radar systems take a few minutes to build the composite view from several sweeps. Point is, the controller's display may be a few minutes old as well. Also, as you point out, the weather chances quickly and the radar is only showing precip. Thus, it is not showing the radid air currents of a developing storm. Until you have experienced being sucked up into a radily developing convective storm by flying through an area that your StrikeFinder and ATC agreed was the best path, you don't fully appreciate how danerous this type of weather can be. I second your recommendation to stay well clear of this type of weather. Ronnie "Bob Gardner" wrote in message . .. The first thing you need to understand is that the weather you see on the 396 is several minutes old...possibly as much as eleven minutes. So you need to watch the display and figure out which way the echoes are going, and plan on passing them on the upwind side. Then you need to realize that radar reflects only decent size rain droplets, not vertical currents, not the tops of clouds, not turbulence. Bottom line is: Stay well clear of anything green...yellow and red go without saying. If you have to get into the green, make the incursion as short as possible. Saw a revealing presentation at a NATCA controller's conference. They showed a slide with several large cells being displayed, and indicated the position of a 172 when the scenario began. The pilot told the controller that if he could have a certain heading, he would be clear of the cell he saw on his screen and could proceed to his destination. Unfortunately, by the time he got to the geographical area which was nice and clear on his cockpit display at the time he asked for the heading, the cell had moved directly into his path with predictable results. The message to the controllers in attendance was "What the pilot sees in the cockpit and real life are two different things." Bob Gardner "Dan" wrote in message egroups.com... For those of you with a Garmin 396, how do you avoid dangerous weather, avoid yellow and steer clear of the lightning strike indications? I am considering the purchase of one and am wondering how to use the info safely, but yet with the maximum utility. Dan |
#20
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Garmin 396 Weather avoidance..
I'm guessing that a very small percentage of those who frequent this
newsgroup fly airplanes with onboard weather radar. OTOH, there are hundreds if not thousands who have multifunction displays. My comments are directed to that group. Bob Gardner "Sam Spade" wrote in message news:QbGig.178785$bm6.92301@fed1read04... Bob Gardner wrote: Honestly don't know whether it was Center or terminal, but I suspect that it was Center. The whole discussion was about delays. In precipitation mode, the image is updated every 4 to 6 minutes. This link gives the NWS explanation of NEXRAD. http://weather.noaa.gov/radar/radinfo/radinfo.html. The WARP (Weather and Radar Processor) system, which is the weather display at Center consoles, suggests further delays as the radar information is processed (duh). I have been beating the drums, writing letters to the editor, etc, to try to eliminate the phrase "real-time weather" from articles and advertisements. NO ONE gets real-time weather, not even the folks at the NWS radar sites. Only airborne weather radar provides real-time echos. |
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