Jeppesen Garmin Nav Updates

Sam Spade wrote:
Frank Stutzman wrote:
Sam Spade wrote:


A lot of effort goes into compiling the data; waypoints, nav aids,
frequencies, airport data, special use airspace boundaries and
altitudes, etc, etc.


Most of which is done on the tax payers dime.
Yes, Jeppesen does add value. For example, they compile it into
different formats for vendors as well as a lot of cross checking and
data validation.
However, the real hefty lifting is done by government agencies. As
the end consumer essentially ends up paying for the base information
twice (once
to Jeppesen and once through their taxes), I'll side with the OP and say
that Jeppesen is indeed overpriced.


And, the companies, Jeppesen and Garmin, aren't in business for the
fun of it.


Yup, and they are welcome to charge as much as they can get for it.
And they
can charge a lot for it because they are the only game in town. However,
if there was any other source for this information, you can bet I for one
would be encouraging the competition.

The taxpayers pay for instrument approach procedures and
route/development maintenance.

The nav database is of little use to anyone until Jeppesen does a lot of
work on it.

Special use airspace boundaries are painstakenly reconstructed by
Jeppesen from the arcane rule-making source. NACO has to do the same to
make Sectionals and TACs, and those aren't exactly free, either.

The compliation of airport, nav-aid and comm frequencies from many
sources isn't easy, either.

The taxpayer is being had by the fact NACO gives away its approach
charts. Those are distinct and separate from the development of the
IAP. No other country in the world gives away their approach charts.


That's not completely true, go to http://ais.fi/, click the IN ENGLISH
tab and then eAIP link. You will get the whole AIP, including all
route and approach charts.

A similar system is at least on the Estonian AIP pages.

--

Tauno Voipio (CPL(A), SE + ME IR)
tauno voipio (at) iki fi

BeechSundowner wrote:
On Oct 13, 10:04 am, Sam Spade wrote:


I can't imagine how someone could afford to buy and install a Garmin 430
but not be able to maintain a current database.

That is really a different, but related issue, to updating a handheld.-


You just met that person. My wallet is not unlimited so I run a
shoestring budget when it comes to the luxuries of updating a data
card. As I am sure you know, maintenance on a plane doesn't come
cheap especially for Beech products (my choice I understand).

Since I don't maintain an updated data card, the 430 is no better then
a hand held as it's legally only good for situational awareness so in
the full scheme it's not different.

I fly approaches at minimum once a month or about 15 times a year.
This comes out to about $20 per "flight day" when I do approaches if I
was to keep an updated card. At least with paper plates, I can check
online to see if I have the latest version and not have to reprint.
Can't do that with the card....

Compared to paper, the electronic process, we are getting gouged big
time. I understand in the beginning cost of establishing
infrastructure, we should pay higher, but now, the infrastructure is
in place and that cost of maintenance is the only thing in place, so
the price should be going southbound. We just are not seeing this.

I don't believe you understand the system.

And, it is pointless to try to explain it here.

Perhaps you should sell the Garmin IFR unit and do your limited IFR
flying with VOR and ILS.

BeechSundowner wrote:

On Oct 13, 11:47 am, Ross wrote:


I paid roughly $390.00 year for my KLN-89/B subscription. I downloaded
from the B-K sight and took my laptop to the airplane.


Just curious, as that price is rediculous. Did you feel you got your
"moneys" worth out of a $400.00 update per year? Or were you like me
that pretty much maintained currency by flying local approaches.
Ironically, with my 430, it doesn't have the minimums in the database,
so I still have to have my paper charts with me!

If I flew for a living or regularily flew over long distances of over
500 NM, I **might** be able to justify an expense of that nature, but
for my kind of "recreational" flying, I find it ludicrous. $400 buys
an awful lot of Avgas! The changes on my paper charts are not **that
much**. BRENZ, DABEY, ALLEN fixes have been there forever and a day.
MAFCA GPS MAP at my airport hasn't changed since I been flying IFR
approaches.

Obviously the kind of flying of 200 NM or less, I do not feel doesn't
account for the expenses of maintaining the database on my 430. In 7
years of flying I can count on one hand the changes of approaches that
I have had to reprint due to a change (mostly for MDA or DH changes).

There needs to be a balance on things and I don't have a choice when
it comes to updating my 430 card. I can't "shop" around for a better
price.

Like I said from get go, I don't expect a free lunch since the
database must be maintained by whomever at the company so I expect to
pay something for the subscription or a one time update as I did, but
we are getting gouged like no other hobby / industry that I know of.
$300 is simply scalping.

Like I said, get rid of the RNAV equipment. Under you circumstances,
you would be better off.

Tauno Voipio wrote:

Sam Spade wrote:

Frank Stutzman wrote:

Sam Spade wrote:


A lot of effort goes into compiling the data; waypoints, nav aids,
frequencies, airport data, special use airspace boundaries and
altitudes, etc, etc.



Most of which is done on the tax payers dime. Yes, Jeppesen does add
value. For example, they compile it into different formats for
vendors as well as a lot of cross checking and data validation.
However, the real hefty lifting is done by government agencies. As
the end consumer essentially ends up paying for the base information
twice (once
to Jeppesen and once through their taxes), I'll side with the OP and say
that Jeppesen is indeed overpriced.


And, the companies, Jeppesen and Garmin, aren't in business for the
fun of it.



Yup, and they are welcome to charge as much as they can get for it.
And they
can charge a lot for it because they are the only game in town.
However,
if there was any other source for this information, you can bet I for
one
would be encouraging the competition.


The taxpayers pay for instrument approach procedures and
route/development maintenance.

The nav database is of little use to anyone until Jeppesen does a lot
of work on it.

Special use airspace boundaries are painstakenly reconstructed by
Jeppesen from the arcane rule-making source. NACO has to do the same
to make Sectionals and TACs, and those aren't exactly free, either.

The compliation of airport, nav-aid and comm frequencies from many
sources isn't easy, either.

The taxpayer is being had by the fact NACO gives away its approach
charts. Those are distinct and separate from the development of the
IAP. No other country in the world gives away their approach charts.



That's not completely true, go to http://ais.fi/, click the IN ENGLISH
tab and then eAIP link. You will get the whole AIP, including all
route and approach charts.

A similar system is at least on the Estonian AIP pages.

Because I told speak Fin I don't know what that is all about. If the
data are current that are the exception. And, I don't need to learn
seversl chart formats to fly internationally.

On Oct 14, 5:21*am, Sam Spade wrote:

And, it is pointless to try to explain it here.

Perhaps you should sell the Garmin IFR unit and do your limited IFR
flying with VOR and ILS.- Hide quoted text -

I do fly ground based as primary as I stated before, but that doesn't
change the fact that the updates are rediculously overpriced. And to
suggest to selling a unit that promotes situational awareness is
ludicrous just because you feel the price of subscription is a
reasonable price. I suspect you are in the very minority of this
group of people who find $300 - $400 annual subscription appropriately
reasonable..

I don't fly everyday and that subscription price per use is
rediculous. I am not arguing with you in that there should't be a
subscription price, but aviation is being gouged. Unrelated expense
but an example of how bad we are getting gouged. I had to replace a
nav light. I could have gone to Lowes and bought the bulb for 38
cents. No, I paid $40.00! Same concept with the GPS data update
expenses.

We live in the computer age and you can't tell me alot of this stuff
hasn't become automated over time...... It's not like there is
material to be had other then a data card. No trees cut down, no
paper mill costs and so on. Hell, there isn't even mailing costs with
the advent of downloadable data.

BeechSundowner wrote:
On Oct 13, 11:47 am, Ross wrote:

I paid roughly $390.00 year for my KLN-89/B subscription. I downloaded
from the B-K sight and took my laptop to the airplane.

Just curious, as that price is rediculous. Did you feel you got your
"moneys" worth out of a $400.00 update per year? Or were you like me
that pretty much maintained currency by flying local approaches.
Ironically, with my 430, it doesn't have the minimums in the database,
so I still have to have my paper charts with me!

/snip/

Like I said from get go, I don't expect a free lunch since the
database must be maintained by whomever at the company so I expect to
pay something for the subscription or a one time update as I did, but
we are getting gouged like no other hobby / industry that I know of.
$300 is simply scalping.

For me I felt that it was worth it only because it was part of flying
and the associated costs. The /89/B is a far cry from what you have, but
it did the job for me. It was certified for en route, terminal, and
approach. I was never a hard IFR pilot. But I wanted up to date
database. I used to use Jepp paper charts, but they were expensive and
covered TX and the surrounding states. More area than I would ever fly
and updating the manuals was a pain. I switched to NACO charts and only
had North TX and OK/AR where I usually flew. And they sent me a whole
new set each time. I ordered though Sportys (always hoping that all my
purchases would win one of their airplane give aways). I knew people
that would only print the free charts off the internet and fly. But,
what happens if you land somewhere you do not have a chart? ATC can read
one out to you and you can construct it on a piece of paper, but I would
not want to try to do that and fly - no auto pilot in the plane I had.


--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
Sold
KSWI

Sam Spade wrote:
Tauno Voipio wrote:

Sam Spade wrote:

Frank Stutzman wrote:

Sam Spade wrote:


A lot of effort goes into compiling the data; waypoints, nav aids,
frequencies, airport data, special use airspace boundaries and
altitudes, etc, etc.



Most of which is done on the tax payers dime. Yes, Jeppesen does add
value. For example, they compile it into different formats for
vendors as well as a lot of cross checking and data validation.
However, the real hefty lifting is done by government agencies. As
the end consumer essentially ends up paying for the base information
twice (once
to Jeppesen and once through their taxes), I'll side with the OP and
say
that Jeppesen is indeed overpriced.


And, the companies, Jeppesen and Garmin, aren't in business for the
fun of it.



Yup, and they are welcome to charge as much as they can get for it.
And they
can charge a lot for it because they are the only game in town.
However,
if there was any other source for this information, you can bet I
for one
would be encouraging the competition.


The taxpayers pay for instrument approach procedures and
route/development maintenance.

The nav database is of little use to anyone until Jeppesen does a lot
of work on it.

Special use airspace boundaries are painstakenly reconstructed by
Jeppesen from the arcane rule-making source. NACO has to do the same
to make Sectionals and TACs, and those aren't exactly free, either.

The compliation of airport, nav-aid and comm frequencies from many
sources isn't easy, either.

The taxpayer is being had by the fact NACO gives away its approach
charts. Those are distinct and separate from the development of the
IAP. No other country in the world gives away their approach charts.



That's not completely true, go to http://ais.fi/, click the IN ENGLISH
tab and then eAIP link. You will get the whole AIP, including all
route and approach charts.

A similar system is at least on the Estonian AIP pages.

Because I told speak Fin I don't know what that is all about. If the
data are current that are the exception. And, I don't need to learn
seversl chart formats to fly internationally.


Please read again: CLICK THE IN ENGLISH TAB, and try again.

There is an ICAO standard format for the charts,
which our AIS follows to the letter.

--

Tauno Voipio

On Oct 14, 11:55*am, Ross wrote:

I knew people
that would only print the free charts off the internet and fly. But,
what happens if you land somewhere you do not have a chart? ATC can read
one out to you and you can construct it on a piece of paper, but I would
not want to try to do that and fly - no auto pilot in the plane I had.

Glad to hear that you feel you do get your money's worth out of the
subscription. I guess when I compare the electronic world to paper,
it just doesn't equate in my simple mind that my few (relatively
speaking) IFR flights justify the $300+ cost when I can get a lot more
flight time in the fuel aspect. As you can see from my videos, I
actively seek hard IFR so I want and need every tool in my tool kit
and for holds, having the 430 even with an outdated data card for
situational awareness makes my life just that much simpler.

Agree with you about printing charts as I know some that will only
print charts for their departure, destination and alternate, but I use
a program called ATP (Aviator Trip Pack) which prints all airports
underneath my flight path (user defineable for corrider width) so I
dont' get caught "under-charted" nor as you point out, should I have
to depend on ATC for what is my responsibility of being adequately
prepared for diversion.

http://cmensys.com/ is the program I use. At this point, I am using
version one for my IFR planning as I haven't quite bought into the
Google mapping part. Program author EXTREMELY responsive to input
and version two is still work in progress. Cost? Freeware. Large
learning curve from get go, but once you get it, it's rather addictive
and simplifies IFR planning to a few clicks of the mouse. Prints two
charts per page (landscape) where you fold the page in half and tear
it (I'm too lazy to get scissors) LOL and viola, you have kneeboard
size charts.

ATP program best thing since sliced bread, makes it a snap to give me
what I need rather then having 5 different booklets of appproach
plates, ruffling through various states to find what I need on my once
a year trip from MS to OH or MD.

Local approaches, naturally, I only print the airports KJAN, KHKS and
KMBO.

To streamline what I need, I print only precision and ground based
approaches along my flight path, and for my departure, destination and
alternate, I print ALL approaches available (including GPS's).

"BeechSundowner" wrote in message
...
On Oct 14, 5:21 am, Sam Spade wrote:
I do fly ground based as primary as I stated before, but that doesn't
change the fact that the updates are rediculously overpriced. And to
suggest to selling a unit that promotes situational awareness is
ludicrous just because you feel the price of subscription is a
reasonable price. I suspect you are in the very minority of this
group of people who find $300 - $400 annual subscription appropriately
reasonable..

Jeppesen will charge what the market will take and not a penny more. Simple
supply and demand issue. Yes, they have the infrastructure in place but the
market is a small one and they need to make a profit. I think they've
already made an attempt to accomodate the spamcan drivers with the
availability of regional database subscriptions.

If there really is a market for someone else, that should be good news to
someone reading this. However, my gut tells me it will sound like a good
idea until the quote for liability insurance arrives.

Marco

BeechSundowner wrote:
On Oct 14, 11:55 am, Ross wrote:

I knew people
that would only print the free charts off the internet and fly. But,
what happens if you land somewhere you do not have a chart? ATC can read
one out to you and you can construct it on a piece of paper, but I would
not want to try to do that and fly - no auto pilot in the plane I had.

Glad to hear that you feel you do get your money's worth out of the
subscription. I guess when I compare the electronic world to paper,
it just doesn't equate in my simple mind that my few (relatively
speaking) IFR flights justify the $300+ cost when I can get a lot more
flight time in the fuel aspect. As you can see from my videos, I
actively seek hard IFR so I want and need every tool in my tool kit
and for holds, having the 430 even with an outdated data card for
situational awareness makes my life just that much simpler.

Agree with you about printing charts as I know some that will only
print charts for their departure, destination and alternate, but I use
a program called ATP (Aviator Trip Pack) which prints all airports
underneath my flight path (user defineable for corrider width) so I
dont' get caught "under-charted" nor as you point out, should I have
to depend on ATC for what is my responsibility of being adequately
prepared for diversion.

http://cmensys.com/ is the program I use. At this point, I am using
version one for my IFR planning as I haven't quite bought into the
Google mapping part. Program author EXTREMELY responsive to input
and version two is still work in progress. Cost? Freeware. Large
learning curve from get go, but once you get it, it's rather addictive
and simplifies IFR planning to a few clicks of the mouse. Prints two
charts per page (landscape) where you fold the page in half and tear
it (I'm too lazy to get scissors) LOL and viola, you have kneeboard
size charts.

ATP program best thing since sliced bread, makes it a snap to give me
what I need rather then having 5 different booklets of appproach
plates, ruffling through various states to find what I need on my once
a year trip from MS to OH or MD.

Local approaches, naturally, I only print the airports KJAN, KHKS and
KMBO.

To streamline what I need, I print only precision and ground based
approaches along my flight path, and for my departure, destination and
alternate, I print ALL approaches available (including GPS's).

I also may be in a different position than you. Both kids out of
college. Fuel and hangars at my airport are about the cheapest around,
the airplane (when I had it) was paid for, I did owner assisted
maintenance, had a very good mechanic that taught me alot. But I still
figured I put out about $8K a year to run the plane., but I did sell it
for almost twice what I paid for it. Not bad for owning for 12 years.
And in the current economy.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
Sold
KSWI