Best Club class glider

On Dec 12, 11:40*am, Paul T wrote:
Thinking about purchasing a club class glider for next year (can't afford a
JS1 or ASG29). I know Std Cirri seem to be popular,

I was in the same place about a year ago, and considered, in addition
to some of the gliders you mention, a Mini Nimbus and a Mosquito.
They'll give you both fantastic value if you can find one that is in
shape, in your price range. (I also considered the ASW20, but you're
likely to spend a little more on.)

I second what was said about trailers; I may add that your choices may
be limited by what will be available within your driving range.

Be aware of the lifetime limits on the Pegase. You don't list it, but
if you're considering an Astir, there's an expensive AD out on it.

As for Std Cirrus - the newer ones (75) have a slightly different
washout, improving its stall characteristics. The original one has an
all-moving tailplane. CG hook only - issue on aerotows - turned out
OK for me, but less than ideal for some. I would be more concerned
with its finish, the panel that comes with it (new instruments are
valuable, but some may be expensive and of little use to you). I
ended up buying a Std Cirrus locally, and fixing up the trailer, panel
and the cockpit during the spring.

On Dec 12, 8:13*pm, David Reitter wrote:
snip

Be aware of the lifetime limits on the Pegase. *You don't list it, but
if you're considering an Astir, there's an expensive AD out on it.
snip

I suspect the OP is in the UK since he put price in pounds not
dollars. AFAIK the lifetime limits in the UK don't exist on the
Pegase, and 10 hours on the road is enough or more than enough to get
to most clubs unless he lives right on the south coast or near
Inverness.

Agree you want a sound trailer, then a good finish, and believe us
mere mortals are best of finding a glider with those two things that
we are comfortable in and enjoy flying rather than worrying about what
Gee is flying.

At 20:13 12 December 2011, David Reitter wrote:
if you're considering an Astir, there's an expensive AD out on it.


The Astir AD is only an issue if you are under FAA rules. In Europe the
AD was mandatory in 1991 (!) and so is ancient history.

if you could buy a good one in your budget I'd go for the Hornet above all
the rest!
I've owned a mess of gliders......lost count, and have flown everything on
your list in one form or another and none on the list come close to the
Hornet in pure joy to fly "and own"......I've in fact owned every Hornet "C"
in the USA (there were unfortunately one 2 of these ever in the US) ) and
have one to this day!.....It may not have the blazing performance of later
gliders but with the light wings, super powerful and easy to use dive
brakes, large roomy and fully adjustable cockpit, automatic hook-ups of
everything, forward hinged canopy and yes.Glasflugel innovation and handling
it's just hands down the best ship to own and more than just competitive
with everything on your list plus you just don't have to think about flying
the glider.it's simply automatic and fly's like you think.....just point and
shoot!
good luck
Tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website at www.wingsandwheels.com

"Paul T" wrote in message
.com...
Thinking about purchasing a club class glider for next year (can't afford
a
JS1 or ASG29). I know Std Cirri seem to be popular, but notice G Dale has
bought a DG100 or 101 and won the UK Nationals in it -just wondered which
would be the best for club class competition and what the pro's and con's
would be of the following:-

Std Cirrus, 75 or 81 ?

ASW19/19B

ASW15B

LSIF

DG100/101

Std Jantar 2/3

Glasflugel Std Libelle

Glasflugel Hornet

Pegase

I'll have about £15k max to spend.


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On Dec 12, 5:34*pm, "Tim Mara" wrote:
if you could buy a good one in your budget I'd go for the Hornet above all
the rest!
I've owned a mess of gliders......lost count, and have flown everything on
your list in one form or another and none on the list come close to the
Hornet in pure joy to fly "and own"......I've in fact owned every Hornet "C"
in the USA (there were unfortunately one 2 of these ever in the US) ) and
have one to this day!.....It may not have the blazing performance of later
gliders but with the light wings, super powerful and easy to use dive
brakes, large roomy and fully adjustable cockpit, automatic hook-ups of
everything, forward hinged canopy and yes.Glasflugel innovation and handling
it's just hands down the best ship to own and more than just competitive
with everything on your list plus you just don't have to think about flying
the glider.it's simply automatic and fly's like you think.....just point and
shoot!
good luck
Tim
Please visit the Wings & Wheels website atwww.wingsandwheels.com

"Paul T" wrote in message

.com...





Thinking about purchasing a club class glider for next year (can't afford
a
JS1 or ASG29). I know Std Cirri seem to be popular, but notice G Dale has
bought a DG100 or 101 and won the UK Nationals in it -just wondered which
would be the best for club class competition and what the pro's and con's
would be of the following:-

Std Cirrus, 75 or 81 ?

ASW19/19B

ASW15B

LSIF

DG100/101

Std Jantar 2/3

Glasflugel Std Libelle

Glasflugel Hornet

Pegase

I'll have about £15k max to spend.

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signature database 6705 (20111212) __________

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- Show quoted text -

I would go with a glider that is easy to rig. Auto control hook ups
are a real plus. The early model Std Circus is IMHO pretty complex to
rig. I enjoyed my Standard Libelle. Do not forget about
ventilation. Most gliders do not have enough ventilation.


Bill Snead
6W

Bill Snead

Thanks for the opinions so far - just to clarify I would like to get an
idea of the pro's and con's of each ship (let's discount things like state
of trailer instruments ect.)
It's interesting to note that Gee Dale recently sold his ASW24 to purchase
a DG100/1 because he felt he could not win the World Club Class with a 24,
as he had to fly too 'high risk' to beat the larger pack of lower
performing club class gliders ove rthe length of a contest.

On Tue, 13 Dec 2011 09:31:12 +0000, Paul T wrote:

Thanks for the opinions so far - just to clarify I would like to get an
idea of the pro's and con's of each ship (let's discount things like
state of trailer instruments ect.)

Two comments: the first may save you some searching. The second is pure
opinion.

- ASW-19, ASW-20, Pegase 101 and 90
It is worth remembering that all these have essentially the same cockpit,
so if you're comfortable in one, you'll be comfortable in the others.
Differences:
- the 19, 20 and Pegase 101 all have Hoteliers. The Pegase 90
is later than the more common 101 and has automatic connecting
controls.

- The 20C and Peg 90 have lifting panels as standard. I'm not sure
about the 20F and Peg 101. The others didn't but quite a lot of
them have had a lifting panel fitted.

- Std Libelle
I fly one and love it, but if you have wide shoulders you may not fit: it
has a rather narrow cockpit though length generally isn't an issue. All
controls are self-connecting except the ailerons, and they are easy to
connect. The glider is light and easy to rig. All-round vis is about the
best there is. I can see my rudder waggling even when strapped in. Its
easy to fly, thermals very well and is fairly spin resistant but you must
fly it accurately: the teardrop fuselage x-section generates a lot of
drag when yawed, but OTOH it comes down like a sack of anvils when
slipped. Two caveats: the brakes are weak, which makes it a little harder
to land tidily since it does float on, and it is *ESSENTIAL* to get a
good briefing from an experienced Libelle driver before you winch it for
the first time. Glasfaser, who took over type support when Glasflugel
folded, are friendly, helpful, and a pleasure to do business with.

HTH


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

You're fortunate that you live in the U.K.; a tiny country with a lot
of gliders. This means you have a lot more choice and it'll be pretty
easy to go look at quite a few gliders.

If you're primary interest is winning club class competitions then you
should look at what glider most commonly wins and buy one of those
(yes, I know that handicapping theoretically means every glider should
be equal but..)

After that you can read Derek Piggott's recommendations and Dick
Johnson's Flight Test Evaluations for some guidance ( they're all on
the SSA website but you need a membership to access them, the Standard
Cirrus B test is available at standardcirrus.org)

Find out which ships you fit in comfortably. As I said above this
should be easy for you as examples of every type you listed will
likely be present at a club not too far away from you. One of the
reasons I didn't buy a Libelle was that I found it too cramped across
the shoulders. A lot of people in my club wouldn't fly the Standard
Jantar we had because they found it too uncomfortable. You never
really know until you try one on for size.

The condition of the glider, particularly the finish is really
important. This applies both to the actual performance (as opposed to
the performance measured when new) and to future maintenance and
resale costs.

As to specific gliders I can speak about the Standard Jantar, ASW-15B
and ASW19/19B from personal experience.

Standard Jantar: The cockpit is long but not too wide (having long
arms is a plus for Jantar pilots). It has a fairly high wing loading
even without water ballast. The landing gear handle can be awkward to
operate as it has to be moved quite far back and you're elbow may have
trouble fitting between you're ribcage and the cockpit side if you're
average height. It stalls and spins quite sharply but recovers quickly
(at least our Standard 1 did and it's the only one I've flown).
Visibility is alright but not great. The large panel and forward
canopy frame restrict things a bit (doesn't apply to the 3 of course).
Airbrakes are more than adequate. Rigging is not too bad. They were
smart enough to provide pins on top of the spars and a lever to fit on
them and pull the wings together just like a Libelle. As far as I'm
concerned EVERY glider that uses a single main pin and cantilevered
pins on the spar ends which fit into bearings in the opposing wing
roots should have this. I curse Grob's engineers every time I have to
deal with one of the club Astir's because they didn't do this and it
makes thing much much harder than they should be.

ASW-15B: (what I currently own and fly) Adequately roomy cockpit for
me (5 ft. 10 and 170lbs.) but not as roomy as the ASW-19 or Cirrus.
Very docile stall spin characteristics, extremely strong airbrakes
(flying at a gross weight of 730 lbs. full airbrakes and a 50 degree
dive doesn't even get me to maneuvering speed) and it can come down
fast using a forward slip. Climbs really well but won't penetrate like
a 19 or Jantar unless it's loaded with water. With the forward hook
and large rudder aerotow is easy. I've never tried the offset C of G
hook. Rigging is easy. The aileron and airbrake connections are easily
accessed and SEEN through the top hatch and the elevator is automatic.
The all flying tail is well designed and doesn't make the glider
twitchy at all. Nice light and responsive ailerons with little
friction. Technical and parts support has been good too. The large
single piece removable canopy is a bit of a pain though.

I live in Canada so a huge factor in my deciding what to buy was the
location of the glider. The fact that the 15 I bought wasn't 3000
miles away or in another country was a major point in it's favor.
There's only about 600 gliders in the whole country and the majority
of them are on the other side of the continent from me. That's not a
problem you're going to have though.

If I were in your place I'd probably go for an ASW-19 or 19B. Most of
the good points of the 15 plus a bigger cockpit, better penetration
and more convenient canopy opening mechanism. The airbrakes aren't as
strong (even with the double blades), the control access hatch is a
bit smaller and the elevator isn't automatic but that's about it for
downsides. It looks beautiful and flies beautiful.

You're fortunate that you live in the U.K.; a tiny country with a lot
of gliders. This means you have a lot more choice and it'll be pretty
easy to go look at quite a few gliders.

If you're primary interest is winning club class competitions then you
should look at what glider most commonly wins and buy one of those
(yes, I know that handicapping theoretically means every glider should
be equal but..)

After that you can read Derek Piggott's recommendations and Dick
Johnson's Flight Test Evaluations for some guidance ( they're all on
the SSA website but you need a membership to access them, the Standard
Cirrus B test is available at standardcirrus.org)

Find out which ships you fit in comfortably. As I said above this
should be easy for you as examples of every type you listed will
likely be present at a club not too far away from you. One of the
reasons I didn't buy a Libelle was that I found it too cramped across
the shoulders. A lot of people in my club wouldn't fly the Standard
Jantar we had because they found it too uncomfortable. You never
really know until you try one on for size.

The condition of the glider, particularly the finish is really
important. This applies both to the actual performance (as opposed to
the performance measured when new) and to future maintenance and
resale costs.

As to specific gliders I can speak about the Standard Jantar, ASW-15B
and ASW19/19B from personal experience.

Standard Jantar: The cockpit is long but not too wide (having long
arms is a plus for Jantar pilots). It has a fairly high wing loading
even without water ballast. The landing gear handle can be awkward to
operate as it has to be moved quite far back and your elbow may have
trouble fitting between your ribcage and the cockpit side if you're
average height. It stalls and spins quite sharply but recovers quickly
(at least our Standard 1 did and it's the only one I've flown).
Visibility is alright but not great. The large panel and forward
canopy frame restrict things a bit (doesn't apply to the 3 of course).
Airbrakes are more than adequate. Rigging is not too bad. They were
smart enough to provide pins on top of the spars and a lever to fit on
them and pull the wings together just like a Libelle. As far as I'm
concerned EVERY glider that uses a single main pin and cantilevered
pins on the spar ends which fit into bearings in the opposing wing
roots should have this. I curse Grob's engineers every time I have to
deal with one of the club Astirs because they didn't do this and it
makes things much much harder than they should be.

ASW-15B: (what I currently own and fly) Adequately roomy cockpit for
me (5 ft. 10 and 170lbs.) but not as roomy as the ASW-19 or Cirrus.
Very docile stall spin characteristics, extremely strong airbrakes
(flying at a gross weight of 730 lbs., full airbrakes and a 50 degree
dive doesn't even get me to maneuvering speed) and it can come down
fast using a forward slip (I routinely do spot landings without using
the airbrakes at all). Climbs really well but won't penetrate like
a 19 or Jantar unless it's loaded with water. With the forward hook
and large rudder aerotow is easy. I've never used the offset C of G
hook. Rigging is easy. The aileron and airbrake connections are easily
accessed and SEEN through the top hatch and the elevator is automatic.
The all flying tail is well designed and doesn't make the glider
twitchy at all. Nice, light and responsive ailerons with little
friction. Technical and parts support has been good too. The large
single piece removable canopy is a bit of a pain though.

I live in Canada so a huge factor in my deciding what to buy was the
location of the glider. The fact that the 15 I bought wasn't 3000
miles away or in another country was a major point in it's favor.
There's only about 600 gliders in the whole country and the majority
of them are on the other side of the continent from me. That's not a
problem you're going to have though.

If I were in your place I'd probably go for an ASW-19 or 19B. Most of
the good points of the 15 plus a bigger cockpit, better penetration
and more convenient canopy opening mechanism. The airbrakes aren't as
strong (even with the double blades), the control access hatch is a
bit smaller and the elevator isn't automatic but that's about it for
downsides. It looks beautiful and flies beautiful.

On Dec 12, 8:16*pm, " wrote:

I would go with a glider that is easy to rig. *Auto control hook ups
are a real plus. *The early model Std Circus is IMHO pretty complex to
rig.

That's correct.

The all-moving tailplane is a bitch to mount, though after maybe 10
times, I think I stopped having issues. The control hook-ups will be
a problem for pilots who can't get their head and upper body into the
fuselage (that's how I do it and it's no big deal for me). There's a
modification that fits an access hatch which makes life much easier -
I have it, though I don't use it as I'm too lazy to replace the tape
around it all the time. Wedekind sleeves may be fit to the control
connections, though that modification is expensive. I've had
occasional issues putting the wings on. All in all, automatic control-
hookups and a better/quicker wing attachment mechanism would be much
preferable. A mod I would insist on is the one for the spoilers.
The original Std Cirrus has poor airbrakes; with this mod, which fits
some extra aluminum sheets, the brakes are fine. Finally, it's a joy
to fly.

http://www.standardcirrus.org/

But what others said initially still holds: get a glider/trailer
combination within the performance/price constraints that makes life
easy when rigging and de-rigging, and look for a decent finish.