An ADS-B In Question

On Sunday, January 10, 2016 at 6:58:27 PM UTC-8, Darryl Ramm wrote:
ADS-B is inherently not secure, a very bad mistake IMNSHO. Nothing is encrypted or cryptographically authenticated. Many technical folks, including experts on encryption etc. that I know also express extreme surprise with that. It is trivial to use to track aircraft which is good at times, but may be a security or physical attack risk, is easily spoofable with possibly bad consequences, including flooding/denial of service style attacks. And all that ground infrastructure, is potentially physically attackable.

That is one reason why it is good there is no way that ADS-B actually issues TCAS-II TYPE RAS (even if you have TCAS II version 7.1 with ADS-B enhancements). You could imagine what could happen with a malicious actor forcing aircraft TCAS systems to issue false RAs.

if its a low-level attack or some idiot just "messing around" then I expect the FAA to use technical means to mitigate some of the harm and to help track down the attackers. Obviously at on extreme they revert back to SSR, A serious technically sophisticated malicious attack, oh that sure worries me.

I do worry that FAA goals of eventually decommissioning a number of approach SSR systems as ADS-B is adopted is a dangerous fantasy. Proffered up by the FAA to congress to show how ADS-B would help save money. That SSR capability is needed as a complement and fallback to ADS-B in case bad things happen. The primary radar facilities are also needed so that somebody just can't turn off ADS-B Out and their transponder and cruise around with no radar coverage. The joint ARTCC/USAF ASRS-4 defense radar facilities are really impressive primary radars but you still want some backup with those local approach primary radars, even if they don't have capacities like the primary radar altitude capability that the big ARSR-4 systems have. How vulnerable that whole radar/SSR infrastructure is is another whole question.


On Sunday, January 10, 2016 at 3:28:06 PM UTC-8, SoaringXCellence wrote:
/snip/
As always I appreciate your knowledge on this and I have a serious concern, based on what several of my programmer geek friends have noted after reading the TSO.

Here is the concern: The ADS-B protocols have no encryption/security protection! I.E. we have a "network" that easily hacked or spoofed, new pseudo-planes could be added to the network with scripted GPS/Altitude data, and no one would know. The whole system is based on the assumption that everyone is playing "nice" with the data.

It that what you understand? How secure is the network?

MB

Darryl,

Thanks for your reply, I fly almost every day in the ATC system of the US and I appreciate both the volume of traffic and the fragile nature of the human element in the ATC. I have yet to get what I believe was a truly dangerous clearance from a controller, but I've also had a few too-close encounters with VFR traffic while descending out of the clouds. ADS-B would sure be nice.

I can see a scenario where a malicious entity could fly into a busy area, engage a false data feed into the ADS-B out, spoofing a track in one direction while going altogether some place else. That's scarier that VFR traffic today.

Thanks again for your knowledgeable participation in these usegroups.

MB

Well that got technical right away. In general terms, would I be able to know about small aircraft with transponders, ie C172 etc, flying into the airport I fly? It's a class E airport, but near a class B airport so, most aircraft are transponder equipped. The device I am looking at is an ADS B - in, receiver, and I would send the information to my iPhone 6+ via wifi. It seems like most major areas now have ADS -B coverage and since I don't have to install an ADS-B out signal, yet. It seems like a solution to what I am looking for, which is some indication of another aircraft near me when my eyes did not pick him up.
Since I am not sending the "out" signal, would I not receive the transponder only traffic? Also since the "out" signal is not present, would the set up just report useless information to me and maybe even show my own glider as traffic?
The device I'm looking at is a TRX1000 from Air Avionics, used with iGlide software.
Thank you.

On Wednesday, January 13, 2016 at 6:21:40 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Well that got technical right away. In general terms, would I be able to know about small aircraft with transponders, ie C172 etc, flying into the airport I fly? It's a class E airport, but near a class B airport so, most aircraft are transponder equipped. The device I am looking at is an ADS B - in, receiver, and I would send the information to my iPhone 6+ via wifi. It seems like most major areas now have ADS -B coverage and since I don't have to install an ADS-B out signal, yet. It seems like a solution to what I am looking for, which is some indication of another aircraft near me when my eyes did not pick him up.
Since I am not sending the "out" signal, would I not receive the transponder only traffic? Also since the "out" signal is not present, would the set up just report useless information to me and maybe even show my own glider as traffic?
The device I'm looking at is a TRX1000 from Air Avionics, used with iGlide software.
Thank you.

While you may see Transponder equipped aircraft transmitted via TIS-B by your local ADS-B ground station, this only happens if there is and ADS-B OUT equipped aircraft in the area. The ONLY way you can reliably expect to see all Transponder equipped aircraft in your vicinity is if your own aircraft is ADS-B OUT equipped.

Personally, I think that installing an ADS-B IN receiver without an ADS-B OUT transmitter is a really bad idea. It will have a tendency to make you falsely think that you are seeing all the traffic out there, which will inevitably breed a very dangerous form of complacency.

On Wednesday, January 13, 2016 at 3:21:40 PM UTC-8, wrote:
Well that got technical right away. In general terms, would I be able to know about small aircraft with transponders, ie C172 etc, flying into the airport I fly? It's a class E airport, but near a class B airport so, most aircraft are transponder equipped. The device I am looking at is an ADS B - in, receiver, and I would send the information to my iPhone 6+ via wifi. It seems like most major areas now have ADS -B coverage and since I don't have to install an ADS-B out signal, yet. It seems like a solution to what I am looking for, which is some indication of another aircraft near me when my eyes did not pick him up.
Since I am not sending the "out" signal, would I not receive the transponder only traffic? Also since the "out" signal is not present, would the set up just report useless information to me and maybe even show my own glider as traffic?
The device I'm looking at is a TRX1000 from Air Avionics, used with iGlide software.
Thank you.

You are in the USA? Which local airport?

This really has been flogged to death in the past. have you tried looking up those past threads?

And any answer is going to be "technical". this stuff, especially in the USA, is a complex ball of string.

But the simple answer is if you are not outputting a *compliant* ADS-B Out signal, correctly configured to describe the aircraft's ADS-B In capability, the FAA ground infrastructure will not broadcast TIS-B data for your client aircraft. TIS-B is what lets you "see" transponder equipped traffic. So no ADS-B Out worrying about TIS-B is a non-starter.

Then even if you have all that, where exactly are you worrying about seeing such traffic? is that within both ADS-B ground coverage and SSR coverage? Don't assume, check - ask other local pilots who have ADS-B Out & In today.

TIS-B is a transitionary thing, and a bit of a mess. Over time as many aircraft equip with 1090ES our UAT Out then the ideal ADS-B receiver becomes a dual-link (1090ES and UAT In) device. That is the only thing that makes sense for stand-alone receivers in the USA GA market. And maybe there is some hope somebody will integrate a UAT receiver with PowerFLARM's internal 1090ES receiver. It's possible but would take somebody willing to d a lot for no chance of making money on it. of course if most aircraft just equip with 1090ES Out, they you just see them direct on a PowerFLARM. Totally whtotu reliance on ADS-B ground infrastructure.

I suspect the TRX1000 was never something intended for the USA market. Does it even support ADS-R and TIS-B as used in the USA? I'd be very careful assuming it was suitable for use here. Check with the manufacturer -- but unfortunately that same manufacturer has been giving some clueless answers about ADS-B questions to folks from the USA, which makes me think they don't understand much about the operation of ADS-B here.

I'm lost as to why anybody in the USA would look at an Air Avionic TRX1000 when the PowerFLARM is widely used and already has FLARM and 1090ES In (but (apparently) does not support TIS-B).

I guess my real answer to this is kind of unfortunately if you are having to ask questions like this,it is not the time for you really be playing with ADS-B. ADS-B right now is something for the geekier folks to play with. Everybody else in glider land in the USA either gets basic 1090ES In with their powerFLARM or should wait and see what happens with mandatory carriage and TABS regulations and new future products. But don't put off adopting a transponder if flying near busy airspace --and pick a good Mode S transponder (e.g. Trig TT-22) that will allow future 1090ES Out upgrades.

Just to make it clear: PowerFLARM will not only show Flarm and 1090ES ADS-B traffic, but also all transponder- equipped aircraft (move C and S) as non-directional "threats" with altitude and approximate range (if being interrogated by SSR/ATC. So the short answer is: get a PowerFLARM, and back it up with a mode S transponder is you can.

Kirk
66

On Wednesday, January 13, 2016 at 6:21:40 PM UTC-5, wrote:
Well that got technical right away. In general terms, would I be able to know about small aircraft with transponders, ie C172 etc, flying into the airport I fly? It's a class E airport, but near a class B airport so, most aircraft are transponder equipped. The device I am looking at is an ADS B - in, receiver, and I would send the information to my iPhone 6+ via wifi. It seems like most major areas now have ADS -B coverage and since I don't have to install an ADS-B out signal, yet. It seems like a solution to what I am looking for, which is some indication of another aircraft near me when my eyes did not pick him up.
Since I am not sending the "out" signal, would I not receive the transponder only traffic? Also since the "out" signal is not present, would the set up just report useless information to me and maybe even show my own glider as traffic?
The device I'm looking at is a TRX1000 from Air Avionics, used with iGlide software.
Thank you.
The TRX1000 is a completely useless piece of equipment for the US market. It's a 1090ES only receiver that doesn't support ADS-R or TIS-B, so you will never see any ADS-B UAT OUT equipped aircraft nor any transponder equipped aircraft, regardless of whether or not your own aircraft is ADS-B OUT equipped.

There are a number of reputable ADS-B receivers that are specifically designed for the US market that fully support ADS-R and TIS-B. A number of these are dual frequency, so they will directly see both UAT and 1090ES targets when you are not within range of an ADS-B ground station and/or are not ADS-B OUT equipped. That is the way to go.

The big question is whether iGlide will support any of these receivers. For the time being, you may have to use GA focused solutions like Foreflight for an ADS-B based collision avoidance system for use with these receivers.

On Thursday, January 14, 2016 at 6:46:52 AM UTC-6, Mike Schumann wrote:

There are a number of reputable ADS-B receivers that are specifically designed for the US market that fully support ADS-R and TIS-B. A number of these are dual frequency, so they will directly see both UAT and 1090ES targets when you are not within range of an ADS-B ground station and/or are not ADS-B OUT equipped. That is the way to go.


Mike, you are leaving out the critical fact that without ADS-B OUT in YOUR plane, you do NOT "directly see both UAT and 1090ES targets...". Just having a cheap dual freq (UAT and 1090) ADS-B receiver will NOT show you UAT traffic around you unless there is an ADS_B OUT equipped plane nearby, and will NOT show you current transponder-only equipped traffic. IT IS NOT "THE WAY TO GO" UNLESS YOU HAVE ADS-B OUT!!!! (yes I'm shouting ;^)!

Without ADS-B out the ONLY complete traffic awareness solution at present is PowerFLARM + Mode S xponder. Period.

The big question is whether iGlide will support any of these receivers. For the time being, you may have to use GA focused solutions like Foreflight for an ADS-B based collision avoidance system for use with these receivers.

ARRRGGHH.... In a glider? Really?

Kirk
66

I have to disagree with you, Kirk since you said "ONLY" and "Period".
That leaves no room for discussion.

"Without ADS-B out the ONLY complete traffic awareness solution at
present is PowerFLARM + Mode S xponder. Period."

Those are ONLY your OPINIONS, and those of a lot of others, but not
those of everyone. I have a Mode S transponder (TT-22) and an MRX PCAS
and I look outside. My electronics "see" the same aircraft as you do
assuming installed transponders and radar coverage which is pretty
complete where I fly. So what if I don't have 360 degree display of the
aircraft around me. It's not a difficult matter to make note of mileage
and delta altitude upon receiving an alert and taking another glance
several seconds later and deciding if the aircraft is closing or
separating from me. There are no worries about "pop up" alerts since I
receive the alerts continuously. It can get pretty annoying while
thermalling!

The only aircraft that has concerned me is that one which had PowerFlarm
installed but no transponder! Now why would anyone do that when he was
possibly invisible to ATC and definitely invisible to non Flarm equipped
aircraft (which includes a lot of airliners overflying Moriarty at 12-14
thousand feet) unless I saw him by looking outside?

As you and I are equipped, we have an equal chance of "seeing" each
other electronically out to the configured ranges of our respective
systems. The price of ADS-B (Out and In) is coming down (especially for
Experimental aircraft). I think I will be able to survive without Flarm
until I decide on which ADS-B system I will install.

On 1/14/2016 9:05 AM, kirk.stant wrote:
On Thursday, January 14, 2016 at 6:46:52 AM UTC-6, Mike Schumann wrote:

There are a number of reputable ADS-B receivers that are specifically designed for the US market that fully support ADS-R and TIS-B. A number of these are dual frequency, so they will directly see both UAT and 1090ES targets when you are not within range of an ADS-B ground station and/or are not ADS-B OUT equipped. That is the way to go.

Mike, you are leaving out the critical fact that without ADS-B OUT in YOUR plane, you do NOT "directly see both UAT and 1090ES targets...". Just having a cheap dual freq (UAT and 1090) ADS-B receiver will NOT show you UAT traffic around you unless there is an ADS_B OUT equipped plane nearby, and will NOT show you current transponder-only equipped traffic. IT IS NOT "THE WAY TO GO" UNLESS YOU HAVE ADS-B OUT!!!! (yes I'm shouting ;^)!

Without ADS-B out the ONLY complete traffic awareness solution at present is PowerFLARM + Mode S xponder. Period.

The big question is whether iGlide will support any of these receivers. For the time being, you may have to use GA focused solutions like Foreflight for an ADS-B based collision avoidance system for use with these receivers.
ARRRGGHH.... In a glider? Really?

Kirk
66


--
Dan, 5J

In defense of Air Avionics, I just received an email from them today saying the TRX1000 would not do what I was looking for. I'll call a local avionics shop (recommended by my FSDO), and ask about a transponder/flarm solution.

Especially if your glider is certified I would be finding/calling a glider A&P who has done FLARM and a Transponder installs before. And look over any Transponder install documentation that may exist from your glider manufacturer. That is usually much better than trying to deal with an avionics shop.. Very few of those folks would know what a PowerFLARM is if it bit them on the ass.