A thousand incursions a year?

Bob Noel wrote:

1) the DC ADIZ isn't new is it? It isn't the only ADIZ, is it?

New is a relative term. It's post 9-11.

It's not the only ADIZ, however, it bears NO RESEMBLANCE either
in operating rule, regulatory status, or any thing other than NAME
to the off-shore ADIZ or the one between the US and MEXICO.


2) Given that I've worked on USAF Air Defense systems, including
stuff in the NCR, I better know the purpose of the DC ADIZ.

Really, how so?

In article ,
Ron Natalie wrote:

2) Given that I've worked on USAF Air Defense systems, including
stuff in the NCR, I better know the purpose of the DC ADIZ.

Really, how so?

Because it was part of my job to know the purpose.

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

Larry Dighera wrote:

How can you be so sure that the ADIZ isn't a typically poorly thought
out, airline industry inspired, TSA pseudo-security measure to provide
the public with tangible evidence that the TSA are earning their pay,
and the military with additional stateside operational duty?

You can't; however, NPR broadcast a discussion of security measures back when
the results of the 9/11 commission were made public. One of the officials
interviewed stated that "they" had been agitating for the equivalent of this
ADIZ for many years and that one of the "good things" about the terrorist
situation is that "no-one can seriously argue any more that the ADIZ isn't
necessary."

I'm afraid I no longer remember who made that comment, but I believe it was a
military officer.

George Patterson
Why do men's hearts beat faster, knees get weak, throats become dry,
and they think irrationally when a woman wears leather clothing?
Because she smells like a new truck.

On Sun, 17 Jul 2005 02:32:10 GMT, George Patterson
wrote in KqjCe.1930$Im3.1442@trndny07::

I'm afraid I no longer remember who made that comment, but I believe it was a
military officer.

Well, it's "their" job, just the way a junkyard dog's job is to bite
fence jumpers at night. You want a vicious dog that will
enthusiastically deter the larcenous, but you want to keep him chained
firmly under control during the day when cash customers are around.
This ADIZ is beginning to look like the dog has slipped its leash.


While I don't deny the vulnerability of DC to certain potential aerial
and other modes of terrorist attack, I believe the cost in restriction
of freedom is far greater than the actual good the DC ADIZ
accomplishes toward security. If those who govern us fear for their
well being in the traditional seats of government, they should retreat
to their bunkers to convene Congress, not revoke the peoples' rights
out of convenience.

The Interagency Airspace Working Group does not include the airline
industry. It appears the principals in this matter is the USSS and DoD,
TSA lacks any technically competant management - has from day one
(don't ask me how I know...)

Since GA represents such a small minority, it is just plain
'low-hanging fruit' that provides the appearance of positive action on
aviation security. That is it, plain and simple. There are no, zero,
nada REAL quantitative studies or Operations Research concerning the
optimum method to secure DC airspace without restricting freedom of
movement. This was a simple, knee-jerk action that there has been
little reason to go back and re-examine, unlike the 30-minute
'pee-in-your-pants' rule (which REALLY made no sense from a tactical
perspective.)

The only way at this point any progress will be made is if a big GOP
donor (perhaps one of the beloved 'Rangers') is shot down by mistake.

unlike the 30-minute
'pee-in-your-pants' rule (which REALLY made no sense from a tactical
perspective.)

What rule is this?

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

In article ,
Jose wrote:

unlike the 30-minute
'pee-in-your-pants' rule (which REALLY made no sense from a tactical
perspective.)

What rule is this?

On flights to DCA, all passengers remain in their seats for the last
30 minutes of the flight.

On flights departing DCA, all passengers remain in their seats for the
first 30 minutes of the flight.

--
Bob Noel
no one likes an educated mule

But my point is, if there's a thousand incursions a year, what
does that say about the effectiveness and usefulness of the
ADIZ? My opinion is that it proves it's uselessness.

I find it hard to imagine that there are really 1000 incursions every year.

But if there really are that many, I'm afraid this says volumes more about
the caliber of our pilots than it does about the utility of an ADIZ.

I'm really starting to grow uncomfortable with this topic, as it is wearing
away at the patina of competence we, as pilots, have always worn. Maybe we
really aren't as good as we think?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

But if there really are that many, I'm afraid this says volumes more about
the caliber of our pilots than it does about the utility of an ADIZ.

Controller error leads to incursions too - I've witnessed them. And
it's also useful to know what exactly is defined as an "incursion". A
wrong transponder code? (that nearly got a congressman shot down)

Jose
--
Nothing takes longer than a shortcut.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

"Jay Honeck" wrote in message
news:_b8Ce.156431$x96.114510@attbi_s72...
[...] Maybe we really aren't as good as we think?

I have always questioned the attitude that pilots are somehow better than
the rest of the world. There are some differences, to be sure...the
certification process eliminates people who are not fully committed. But it
does nothing to eliminate the idiots. It just lets through the fully
committed idiots, just as it lets through the fully committed competents.

Personally, I think that in practically every endeavor, aviation included,
there are more idiots than competents. That's why we need rules. Of
course, the idiots find lots of ways to break the rules too, but without any
rules things would be even worse.

The real problem is when the rule-makers are acting as idiotically as the
idiots the rules are supposed to protect. Then you get something like the
DC ADIZ.

This has been a service of the Public Cynicism Broadcast Corporation.

Pete