Gary IN to CVG?

"John Doe" wrote in message
news
I don't recall anything that says some big shot in a jet has a higher
priority reason to land there than you do. That's why it's called a
public airport.

Of course they have a higher priority. They have 100+ passengers, they are
trying to make a schedule, their fuel costs more than your plane, they fly
at speeds that match the local traffic, they are almost always perfect at
low IFR approaches - they fit in the system that was designed for them. You
don't. If you want to use a Class B, go for it. But don't get ****ed off
when you get vectored for half an hour to fit you into the pattern - that's
like getting angry that New York has more traffic than Peoria. It's just
part of the environment.

And, by the way, if you get upset at the approach end, wait until you have
to wait on line to depart behind 18 stinking jets at 105 degrees because you
couldn't get the taxi clearance you wanted. Sure, we have every right to fly
in and out of Class Bs. Sometimes, like in the case of the OP, it probably
makes sense. But 99% of the time life is much easier landing at one of the
local GA airports.

Michael

writes:
Don't know *who* they think they are. And I've flown into other Class B
airports without the headaches too. But CVG really seems to go out of
its way to make things difficult sometimes for GA folks. I'm a CFI out
of LUK, and generally have no problem at all doing stuff in their
airspace...but ask to land? They *definitely* don't like it. Even at
slow times, they don't like small planes, especially doing practice
approaches. In fairness to them, tho, when it matters they are solid. I
had to miss off of the LUK ILS a couple of times earlier this year, and
the CVG guys did a fine job, basically offering me anything I wanted
either at LUK or CVG (I got into LUK on the next try); fine vectors no
problems at all.

But I've tried to go in there VFR a couple times, and do some practice
approaches with students, and I felt distinctly unwelcome. Can't blame
them...their job is first and foremost to get the big iron in and
out...unnecessary GA planes just make the mix more complex for them.

I thought the FAA's job is to properly handle /all/ aircraft.

Everett M. Greene wrote:
I thought the FAA's job is to properly handle /all/ aircraft.

Well, presumably they will. Just with a bad attitude.

I think it's pretty funny how certain ATC locations have noticeably
negative personalities. But on second thought, it's not surprising.
It's a job, offices have 'cultures', and management quality varies.
Fortunately they have a pretty well defined set of operating procedures
to follow and plenty of controls so as long as they get it done, what's
the problem?

Charlotte used to be kind of funky in this pilot's book but that's long
gone. Maybe a little hub downsizing gets everyone's attention. Great
place now. Savannah usually managed to seem nasty for no apparent
reason. Probably an a--h--- manager or 2, who knows.

Yes it is. And as I said, when something *really* matters, they do it
well, regardless of whether you are an A340 or a Cherokee. But there is
a reason a Class B airport is a Class B airport. And while,
theoretically, a 152 on an IFR training flight is no 'different' from a
767 with a full load of passengers, the realities *are* different.

The guys at CVG don't want a 172 mixing with their big iron. And I
can't blame them. Their job is to help ensure the safe and efficient
operations in and out of their airport, and 75 knots just doesn't mix
well with 180 knots. They know there are 3 perfectly good GA airports
within 25 miles. If you are GA, it seems that they want you to use
them. They also know that that 777 costs $15,000 an hour to operate,
and making him miss because he can't slow down enough and the 172 ahead
of him can't speed up enough is going to cause all kinds of headaches.

It's like most other things in aviation operations. If an approach
controller is pretty certain you know your stuff (i.e. you're a freight
dog, and he recognizes your tail number or call sign) he may well give
you a different approach (i.e. slam you in right at the marker, between
traffic) than if he thinks you are a 'random' or inexperienced GA IFR
pilot (i.e. stick you in a hold until everything is clear, then give
easy vectors out to the boonies to get you established). And can you
blame him?

I'm not saying the OP *can't* go into CVG. Obviously he can, and he
seems to have a very good reason for choosing CVG over Lunken. But I am
saying is that these guys have a job to do, and random GA planes flying
PLAs into their airport can make their jobs harder. They don't like it,
and they make that known.

Cheers,

Cap

writes:
[snip]
I'm not saying the OP *can't* go into CVG. Obviously he can, and he
seems to have a very good reason for choosing CVG over Lunken. But I am
saying is that these guys have a job to do, and random GA planes flying
PLAs into their airport can make their jobs harder. They don't like it,
and they make that known.

If they don't like their job, they can find another
line of work. Controllers are Government employees
whose job it is to serve the (flying) public. If
they can't do that in a reasonable and responsible
manner, they should be shown the door.

Not knowing all this I arranged to be dropped off there to catch
af flight by my client in a BE-35.

No problem at all. Saturday afternoon as I recall.

Bill Hale

They serve the flying public well. And they don't 'deny' services to
anyone. Want to practice an ILS while a bunch of 767s are inbound?
Great. Proceed direct HOLGR and hold...expect further clearance in 4
hours. You want to do some touch and goes in your 152 during the Delta
push? No problem at all...right turn 360, expect a turn inbound in 40
miles. Want to take back off? Sure. Excellent. You will be number 23
for takeoff behind that 15th RJ.

Why should one expect anything else? Class B airports, by definition,
are air carrier airports. That is their primary reason to exist. The
controllers understand that, and act accordingly. You 'can' go into a
Class B airport if you'd like in your 152. But is it wise? generally
not. You know it, I know it, and the controllers know it. This is how
they let you know that they don't like it. And I completely understand.

Cheers,

Cap

Maule Driver wrote:

Everett M. Greene wrote:
I thought the FAA's job is to properly handle /all/ aircraft.

Well, presumably they will. Just with a bad attitude.

I think it's pretty funny how certain ATC locations have noticeably
negative personalities. But on second thought, it's not surprising.
It's a job, offices have 'cultures', and management quality varies.
Fortunately they have a pretty well defined set of operating procedures
to follow and plenty of controls so as long as they get it done, what's
the problem?

Charlotte used to be kind of funky in this pilot's book but that's long
gone. Maybe a little hub downsizing gets everyone's attention. Great
place now.

When RDU was an AA hub, they didn't want local pilots coming in to do
practice stuff. After AA pulled out, RDU controllers came to local
flying club meetings and invited them come on over and practice as much
as they want.

The above happened before I started flying. My only experience with RDU
is in the post-AA era and they have been nothing but friendly and
helpful IMO.

RDU is close to my home airport and I go in there a lot. They are very
friendly. Of course one of my airpark neighbors is a controller there too.

I've attended various meetings where RDU issues have been covered and
here's how I understand it:

When an AA hub, RDU was on track for a Class B. More ATC pay, perhaps
prestige, and no need to solicit more traffic (or friends?). When the
hub collapsed, they slipped below the traffic threshold required for
Class B.

Apparently they've been very close over the years because Class B
hearings and planning sessions and such have been held repeatedly, but
they seem to keep coming up short of whatever the criteria is.

I remember an ATC rep in one of the meetings half joking about how they
welcome every operation in order to help them make the numbers.

So RDU remains a Class C and can't seem to make the big time from an ATC
perspective. But there are new facilities all over the place. New
parking, new ramps, new hangars,the FBOs seem successful and flush, big
iron GA floods the ramp, and *visiting* spam can flyers benefit from it
all. A GREAT place to fly into for whatever. Yaaay!

xyzzy wrote:
When RDU was an AA hub, they didn't want local pilots coming in to do
practice stuff. After AA pulled out, RDU controllers came to local
flying club meetings and invited them come on over and practice as much
as they want.

The above happened before I started flying. My only experience with RDU
is in the post-AA era and they have been nothing but friendly and
helpful IMO.

Apparently they've been very close over the years because Class B hearings and planning sessions and such have been held repeatedly, but they seem to keep coming up short of whatever the criteria is.

I remember an ATC rep in one of the meetings half joking about how they welcome every operation in order to help them make the numbers.

So RDU remains a Class C and can't seem to make the big time from an ATC perspective.

So, maybe us spam cans ought to avoid the airport, lest we get more
Bravo airspace.

Jose
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