Help Our UAL Friends

"Carl Ellis" wrote in message
.. .

Closing the door after the cow leaves, but ...

The government needs to throw the *******s who underfunded the pension
plan
in prison. After that, no executive will consider letting a plan get in
that position.


- Carl -
Agreed, life in prison that would fix the problem. Throw the union leaders
in also. They are supposed to do something for their members.

("Robert M. Gary" wrote)
[snip]
Maybe you should point the finger at the unions that created an
unrealistic pension to
begin with and didn't allow changes to the program as discount airlines
ate their shorts.


Discount airlines ate their shorts because of bad management decisions not
related to pension costs.

Shall we also talk about "unrealistic" management compensation packages?


Montblack

"Morgans" wrote in message
...

Who is going to pay for all of the people who lose their pension, as they
get aged, and were planing to live off it? You and I, the younger worker,
one way or the other.


Yes, because money will be taken from us unlawfully and given to them. So
what good are laws?

("sfb" wrote)
I suggest you lock up the Congress critters as UAL and the other legacy
carriers are only doing what the law permits. If they were ignoring the
law, the SEC would have done a number on them long ago for incorrect
financial reporting by a public company.


25% of this country's economic problems can be directly traced back to the
SEC and their inability to come up with clear accounting rules - and then
enforce them in any meaningful way. [Cite? Me]

Agreed on point A: Pensions should be off limits to Lee Iacocca CEO types.
Over funded
my ass -- for today maybe. How about in 12 years? Oops, a turn around in the
numbers? "Congress" (meaning you$$ you$$ you$$ and you$$) ..."help!!"


Montblack

What bad management decisions? Airline management has about three basic
decisions - planes to fly, routes to fly, and how much to pay their
employees. The legacy carriers are paying about 2 cents per seat per
mile more for labor than the discount airlines. Some of that difference
is pension costs.

"Montblack" wrote in message
...
("Robert M. Gary" wrote)
[snip]
Maybe you should point the finger at the unions that created an
unrealistic pension to
begin with and didn't allow changes to the program as discount
airlines ate their shorts.


Discount airlines ate their shorts because of bad management decisions
not related to pension costs.

Shall we also talk about "unrealistic" management compensation
packages?


Montblack

"sfb" wrote in message news:luAXe.1713$Az1.376@trnddc07...
I suggest you lock up the Congress critters as UAL and the other legacy
carriers are only doing what the law permits. If they were ignoring the
law, the SEC would have done a number on them long ago for incorrect
financial reporting by a public company.

I think that the time has come and past, where companies can so easily dodge
a pension plan's obligations. There should be laws passed to protect all
pension plans, by holding them in trust, or whatever means are necessary.
Allowing them to dodge them is, IMHO, a breach of contract.

Who is going to pay for all of the people who lose their pension, as they
get aged, and were planing to live off it? You and I, the younger worker,
one way or the other.
--
Jim in NC

("sfb" wrote)
What bad management decisions? Airline management has about three basic
decisions - planes to fly, routes to fly, and how much to pay their
employees. The legacy carriers are paying about 2 cents per seat per mile
more for labor than the discount airlines. Some of that difference is
pension costs.


Is this out of 37 cents per seat mile or 5 cents per seat mile? Curious.

Is it 3% more or 28% more?

To the larger point: Management, itself, is one of those "basic" decisions -
what type of management will we be? It snowballs from there...

Pension funds, fuel prices, gate fees, lawsuits, rising interest rates,
health care costs, advertising, weather on the east coast g, changing
travel habits, Internet integration, oil hedge funds, stock prices, logos
....I'd say (a good) management had better be able to juggle them ALL.

Heck, I can juggle just three balls at once.


Montblack

On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 21:57:39 -0700, "Aluckyguess"
wrote:

Not that I dont feel bad for all the union workers and their pensions, but I
also feel bad for all the people who lost money with enron.
I am paying a 1000 a month for medical insurance, you think we could pass a
bill to help pay for that. I dont know where all this money is goin come
from, but I guess we will worry about that later.
My 401k took quite a hit when the market crashed you think we could pass a
bill for that also.
You all new this was coming it was just a matter of when. Its time to stop
the bailouts.

You guys don't get it, do you? You're not allowed to complain about
life unless you're an airline pilot. Those poor souls really know
what it is to be down on their luck. So next time you selfishly think
about your own troubles, folks in dire need, or old people who have to
eat dog food to afford their meds, consider those who have been less
fortunate in life than you have, namely airline pilots.

And personally, I don't think Congress should bail any of those
*******s out. ****-poor management, leveraging, allowing unions to
get what they want for years, big bonus money for the upper crust,
etc., etc., etc. UAL? Jesus Christ, the employees own the company
and now they're looking for a handout?

One word - Southwest!

Orval Fairbairn wrote:
A neighbor, who is UAL (ret) asked me to circulate this one.

They make some pretty good points, as the UAL people currently stand to
get reamed pretty badly.


They do? Not half as badly as a lot of much poorer people got reamed on
the Gulf Coast earlier this month.

I'll bet a good survey would show that these guys by and large are in
the upper 10-15% of net worth between real estate, investments, and the
like. Are you going to see retired UAL pilots selling their houses on
golf courses? No doubt. Are you going to see retired UAL pilots in soup
kitchens? Pretty unlikely on a $50k/year pension.

As far as I'm concerned, that's where my responsibility ends. I'm 29
and can make a very good income and would still struggle to raise a
family and put a few bucks in the bank so I have something to fall back
on when I don't collect the pension I never had and Social Security
raises the retirement age to one day short of my life expectancy. Oh,
and now we're going to buy you all prescription drugs, too. Wunderbar!
When do I get my handout?

Jon A wrote:
On Sun, 18 Sep 2005 21:57:39 -0700, "Aluckyguess"
wrote:

Not that I dont feel bad for all the union workers and their pensions, but I
also feel bad for all the people who lost money with enron.
I am paying a 1000 a month for medical insurance, you think we could pass a
bill to help pay for that. I dont know where all this money is goin come
from, but I guess we will worry about that later.
My 401k took quite a hit when the market crashed you think we could pass a
bill for that also.
You all new this was coming it was just a matter of when. Its time to stop
the bailouts.

You guys don't get it, do you? You're not allowed to complain about
life unless you're an airline pilot. Those poor souls really know
what it is to be down on their luck. So next time you selfishly think
about your own troubles, folks in dire need, or old people who have to
eat dog food to afford their meds, consider those who have been less
fortunate in life than you have, namely airline pilots.

And personally, I don't think Congress should bail any of those
*******s out. ****-poor management, leveraging, allowing unions to
get what they want for years, big bonus money for the upper crust,
etc., etc., etc. UAL? Jesus Christ, the employees own the company
and now they're looking for a handout?

One word - Southwest!

I saw a news article linked from AvWeb earlier today that said that SWA
had over the past five years gone way out on a limb buying hedged fuel
contracts, such that their fuel price was equivalent to $25/bbl oil.
Same old, same old problem: the airlines are too big to fail. No
smaller business could f--- up this bad and stay out of Chapter 7...