Flying Thru Congested Areas

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message ...
So, would it be poor form to get an ifr clearance to get above whatever
cloud layer at your departure airport....fly VFR when you are on
top....then pickup an on-the-fly IFR again 100 miles or so before your
destinatation airport if you needed to descend back down through a cloud
layer? I am not saying this is a particularly good idea, or
particularly "polite"...I am just asking a question here.

Sami,

As long as you file the IFR flight plans with flight service
before requesting 'em, it's no problem at all nor is it
impolite AFAIK -- it's your right to use the system as
best suits you.

Another alternative can be to request the IFR clearance
"VFR on top" once you're above the clouds at your departure
airport. This keeps you in the IFR system but, since ATC
no longer has to separate you, they may be able to allow
more direct routing.

We used to fly from the midwest to Buffalo NY regularly.
Direct routing is right through the Cleveland Class B and
IFR would result in the wide-around to the south. We used
both the above techniques. In general my pref. would be
try VFR-on-top first, cancel if I can't get direct routing
I want. One time after we canceled IFR I flew into an
unforecast cloud layer. It wasn't a big deal but it would
have been easier and more straightforward to just say
"unable to maintain VFR-on-top, request IFR altitude" than
to have to file and obtain a new IFR clearance.

FWIW,
Sydney

"Jeff" wrote in message ...
Hey Sami
If you fly above the class B of those areas (10,000 ft) then you dont have
any problems, I do this when ever I fly to the other side of phoenix,
reason is they always vector me way around their class B, so I got into
the habit of just flying over their class B VFR.

VFR in the NE I just plan a straight line route and get flight following all
the way up. While I get wiggled around a little bit (my flight path would
take me through PHL and EWR's approach path at a rather shallow angle,
they turn me parallel to the runways for a few miles and then back on
course). As a matter of fact before the *&#@$! Secret Service screwed
up the DC airspace, I could count on direct over the top of BWI and ADW
(to my home field which is just about 6 miles from ADW).

"Jeff" wrote in message
...

If you fly above the class B of those areas (10,000 ft) then you dont have
any problems, I do this when ever I fly to the other side of phoenix,
reason is they always vector me way around their class B, so I got into
the habit of just flying over their class B VFR. Just when your near their
airspace, you call approach and let them know who you are and where your
going so that they know and can advise you of traffic conflicts.
If your IFR then they can vector you around, if your VFR then they wont
vector you, they will vector the IFR traffic around you.


Vector IFR around VFR aircraft in the Class E airspace above the Class B? I
think not.

you have never been vectored around VFR traffic before?
Happens to me everytime I file IFR.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

Vector IFR around VFR aircraft in the Class E airspace above the Class B? I
think not.

"Jeff" wrote in message
...

you have never been vectored around VFR traffic before?
Happens to me everytime I file IFR.


That's fine, as long as it's in airspace in which ATC has the responsibility
to separate VFR aircraft from IFR aircraft and thus the authority to
initiate vectors for separation. But we're not talking about such airspace.
Of course, an aircraft can always request such vectors.

I have been out in the middle of no where several times on IFR flight plans and
been told to "traffic at your XX O'clock, not talking to him, turn xxx degrees."

Also been given vectors way the hell away from my flight path and was even asked
if I could climb to 14,000 ft to avoid VFR traffic that was passing through a
pass.

"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:

"Jeff" wrote in message
...

you have never been vectored around VFR traffic before?
Happens to me everytime I file IFR.


That's fine, as long as it's in airspace in which ATC has the responsibility
to separate VFR aircraft from IFR aircraft and thus the authority to
initiate vectors for separation. But we're not talking about such airspace.
Of course, an aircraft can always request such vectors.

Jeff, Good advice, thanks. But I am curious about your experience that
you do not get vectored when you are VFR. If I ask for flight following
from center (or approach), I believe I have experienced being vectored
even though I was VFR. Perhaps I recall incorrectly. I wonder if a
controller-type person can enlighten us on the rules about vectoring VFR
traffic under flight following.

-Sami

Jeff wrote:
Hey Sami
If you fly above the class B of those areas (10,000 ft) then you dont have
any problems, I do this when ever I fly to the other side of phoenix,
reason is they always vector me way around their class B, so I got into
the habit of just flying over their class B VFR. Just when your near their
airspace, you call approach and let them know who you are and where your
going so that they know and can advise you of traffic conflicts.
If your IFR then they can vector you around, if your VFR then they wont
vector you, they will vector the IFR traffic around you. Another thing I
got used to doing when flying around the phoenix area, I found oout they
like to send me way down south then turn me up. I dont fly IFR into
phoenix anymore unless I really have to.

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote:


I am planning a long cross country where I am trying to minmiize the
time the trip will take (while, of course, trying to be as safe as
possible). The shortest route would take me straight over the top of
Detroit and Clevland and Pittsburg (I am flying from Central Wisconsin
to Washington D.C. to be specific). Perhaps this is a no brainer, but
that does not sound like a particularly good route to me, just because
of the congrestion in these spaces. The congestion (a) increases the
likelihood of vectoring delays, and (b) decreases my safety somewhat
because the probability of a collision is somewhat higher (although,
still quite small, I realize).

If I pick a route to the south, I could avoid all of these areas by
about 30 miles, but it adds about 60-70 miles to my trip. Even at 30
miles south, I imagine the congestion will be significant. In fact, a
controller once implied that it is often better to go straight across
the top of a major airport because there are fewer airplanes in
transition there (descending for approach, or climbing for departure).

So, what do you folks suggest? Thanks in advance for you advice.

-Sami
N2057M
Piper Turbo Arrow III

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message ...
Jeff, Good advice, thanks. But I am curious about your experience that
you do not get vectored when you are VFR.

If you're inside a class B, you can get vectored. Outside, it's not supposed
to be one of their options.

"O. Sami Saydjari" wrote in message
...

But I am curious about your experience that
you do not get vectored when you are VFR. If I ask for flight following
from center (or approach), I believe I have experienced being vectored
even though I was VFR. Perhaps I recall incorrectly. I wonder if a
controller-type person can enlighten us on the rules about vectoring VFR
traffic under flight following.


ATC separates VFR aircraft in Class B and Class C airspace, in the outer
area associated with Class C airspace, and in TRSAs. In those areas it is
entirely proper for ATC to vector VFR aircraft. Outside of that airspace
VFR aircraft are vectored only by request.

right, you wont get vectors but you will get traffic advisories and its up to
you to make sure you dont hit anything.
Of course you can also say "negative contact, request vectors around traffic"
when you get an advisory that may be conflicting with your path.

but in general, jump up above the class B and set a direct course to where
your going - just watch out for any restricted areas - for those you can ask
center if its active.


"Steven P. McNicoll" wrote:ATC separates VFR aircraft in Class B and Class C
airspace, in the outer

area associated with Class C airspace, and in TRSAs. In those areas it is
entirely proper for ATC to vector VFR aircraft. Outside of that airspace
VFR aircraft are vectored only by request.