horrible ifr training x-c

"Jeff" wrote in message

I told it LAS was not giving us a tesat and did not expect us to
substract 360 from 394 and intercept the 14 degree radial.

Would this be the new math?

"Dave Jacobowitz" wrote in message
om...
|
| So on Sunday I have my requisite X-C with my instructor,
| and, wham, I feel like I totally unraveled.

Good. This is the "bad ride" that you get just before reaching a new level
of competence.

Good. This is the "bad ride" that you get just before reaching a new level
of competence.

Well put, I was about to say the same thing. On the contrary, this is
a sign of progress, everyone reaches a "bad day" point where they
screw up and *know* that they did, a big step up from previous
blissful ignorance... No reason to get discouraged.

It's sounds like a great learning experience, but I have to wonder if
it is such a good idea to allow a student to continue along the wrong
airway under IFR for the sake of learning experience. Even under VMC,
ATC is counting on you flying the cleared route for proper IFR
separation. May be I am chicken, but I would be afraid of the infamous
"call us when you land" instruction if I allowed my student to get
that far off course under IFR.


(Dave Jacobowitz) wrote in message . com...
Okay, I've been doing this IFR training thing now for a
few months, flying once or twice a week, and it's been
going pretty well. I've not really had any trouble with
the knowledge part (self studied for the written and
got 95%) and have been doing nicely with the skill stuff
as well, getting the holds, ndb approaches, everything.

So on Sunday I have my requisite X-C with my instructor,
and, wham, I feel like I totally unraveled. Just one mistake
after another. Sloppy approaches, forgetting to swtich
tanks until the aileron to keep the plane level is
unmistakable, not identifying stations, and what bothers
me the most, is confidently navigating right down the
center of the wrong airway. How, you ask? Simply by
putting my finger on the map 3/4" from where it should
have been, and then reading off the headings, intersections,
everything incorrectly from that. I'm sure my instructor
knew what was going on, but I only found out when ATC
kept asking me why I was so far off the airway. (these
airways were close enough in distance and angle that my
error only became obvious to radar after many minutes
flying.)

We were safe, the whole time. I was under the hood, we
were on top in VMC enroute, and my instructor knew what was
going on the whole time, but the whole episode was
rather unnerving.

It's just all too easy to see how just a simple mistake
or two can be deadly in the clouds.

So. Anybody else have a bad flight that made them
question their instrument rating worthiness?

-- dave

wonder if it is such a good idea to allow a student to continue
along the wrong airway under IFR for the sake of learning experience.


That's why I suspect the instructor was oblivious to the error.

It certainly occurred to me, as well. Alas, he would
not cop to it, and I'm not going to accuse anyone
of anything on the internet.

-- dave j

Greg Esres wrote in message . ..
wonder if it is such a good idea to allow a student to continue
along the wrong airway under IFR for the sake of learning experience.


That's why I suspect the instructor was oblivious to the error.

(Dave Jacobowitz) wrote in
om:

So on Sunday I have my requisite X-C with my instructor,
and, wham, I feel like I totally unraveled. Just one mistake
after another. Sloppy approaches, forgetting to swtich
tanks until the aileron to keep the plane level is
unmistakable,...

This too is part of your training. Even when you have your rating and
significant instrument experience under your belt (and it **does** get
better G), there will be times when things start to unravel. It is
important to learn, not how to keep it from happening (you can't, you're
human), rather how to STOP it as soon as you recognize it and get things
back on track.

There will be times when it seems like all you can do is make mistakes.
With experience they will happen less and less, but they will happen.
[Just listen to the airlines enough.] What is important is that you
learn to recognize this "accident chain," and learn to take a deep
breath. Then "ATC, Barnburner 123 needs a radar vector for a couple of
minutes, while we get some problems sorted out up here."

Then you find the right map, get the avionics programmed, take another
breath, swear NOT to dwell on the PREVIOUS few minutes, only on the ones
ahead, and you are back on track again.

Don't sweat your XC session - that's why you had an instructor on board.

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------

In article , "James M. Knox"
writes:

This too is part of your training. Even when you have your rating and
significant instrument experience under your belt (and it **does** get
better G), there will be times when things start to unravel. It is
important to learn, not how to keep it from happening (you can't, you're
human), rather how to STOP it as soon as you recognize it and get things
back on track.


James, I think that this is a very important point that you make. You will
never get perfect and never make a mistake. It is the recognizing of "the
first" one and correcting rather than complicating with another and another.

To me, this is the same point that says that we will never "win" the terrorist
war. We need to accomadate to it and realize that an incident will happen.
One of these days a GA plane will be involved (God help us, I hope it is a long
way off) but that sure isn't a reason to close GA any more than we should stop
renting Ryder trucks after Oklahoma.

Chuck

I just want to thank everyone on this board who has
been supportive. I flew with my CFII again yesterday
for the first time since the X/C. (It's been almost
two full weeks -- a long time in IFR training, but
there were the usual scheduling conflicts.)

Anyway, aside from a little sloppiness on climbout,
things went well, and I felt like a pilot again. We
flew to KAPC, KCCR, KOAK, and flew a variety of
approaches, with nary a corrective word from my
instructor, or ATC for that matter.

The two low pointa were being told by Travis approach
that they won't allow practice approaches at Concord
anymore. Also, the Oakland people cancelled an ndb 27r
approach about 30 seconds after giving me my final
vector because I was off course. Okay, I had a sloppy
start but I was pretty far out and was just getting
established.

-- dave

(Dave Jacobowitz) wrote in
om:

The two low pointa were being told by Travis approach
that they won't allow practice approaches at Concord
anymore. Also, the Oakland people cancelled an ndb 27r
approach about 30 seconds after giving me my final
vector because I was off course. Okay, I had a sloppy
start but I was pretty far out and was just getting
established.

It's also possible to create your own instrument approaches. For example,
take a VOR appoach to an airport with co-located VOR. Now just pick some
VOR out in the boonies and use it instead. If terrain is a problem, add
1000 feet to everything. Yes, you won't be able to "see" the runway at the
MAP - but it will still be just as hard to keep the needles centered.

[Same thing can be done with an NDB approach and an AM radio tower. Or
just make up your own approach to a "virtual" airport.]

-----------------------------------------------
James M. Knox
TriSoft ph 512-385-0316
1109-A Shady Lane fax 512-366-4331
Austin, Tx 78721
-----------------------------------------------